What happens after suicide?

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kausalya
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by kausalya » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:49 am

well wisher wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:34 pm
kausalya wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:45 pm
Do you know many people that have had insight into the dependently originated nature of phenomena because they have died of cancer(for example)?

So where is the guarantee (where is your proof) that a long and tortuous death is better (or more beneficial) than a quick one by one's-own-hand?
We have the illusion that more time grants more opportunities. In reality, the true opportunities arise because of previously-developed karmic potentials, and nothing else. The rest is just maya.
Thanks for the responses. Looks like "I" will need more practices & experience to realize these points further about the intrinsic illusionary nature about time and opportunities then.
The only reason I doubt your sincerity is that I have no way of knowing whether or not I chose words appropriate for your situation. Above all, I mean you no harm (rabid control-freak that I am).
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)

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well wisher
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by well wisher » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:45 pm
Do you know many people that have had insight into the dependently originated nature of phenomena because they have died of cancer(for example)?

So where is the guarantee (where is your proof) that a long and tortuous death is better (or more beneficial) than a quick one by one's-own-hand?
kausalya wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:49 am
well wisher wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:34 pm
kausalya wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:28 pm
We have the illusion that more time grants more opportunities. In reality, the true opportunities arise because of previously-developed karmic potentials, and nothing else. The rest is just maya.
Thanks for the responses. Looks like "I" will need more practices & experience to realize these points further about the intrinsic illusionary nature about time and opportunities then.
The only reason I doubt your sincerity is that I have no way of knowing whether or not I chose words appropriate for your situation. Above all, I mean you no harm (rabid control-freak that I am).
Thinking further about "Do you know many people that have had insight into the dependently originated nature of phenomena because they have died of cancer(for example)?" - No, sorry I do not have any clear answer.
But an different very optimistic response might be: A person does not need to suicide or die at all to realize "dependently originated nature of phenomena".
Because One can get a glimpse of this at any single moment, at least on more basic surface levels, through simple logical inquiring or even observation in nature.

Such as:
  • How does a person even "see" a ray of light? If you separate out the light and the eye as independent, wouldn't that make them intrinsically empty and useless?
  • If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Yes if someone with ears hear it. Otherwise no.
  • If one separate out the "life" and "death" as independent phenomenon, in discussing "life-to-death" as in one lifecycle, wouldn't it break this cycle at least in the conceptual sense? But also make both "life" and "death" meaningless?
So putting aside the time aspect discussion, the other big unknown (or "danger") with the death-gate, in the cycles of life and death on topics of rebirths and reincarnation, is the "memory wipe" on the start of a human life.
(For example, Malcolm in another post on this forum explained one possibility might be due to the trauma of birth).
I cannot even consciously clearly recall any of my past lives!

So theoretically speaking, if I cannot even recall any of my past life's mistakes, then wouldn't repeating this cycle of life and death as utterly meaningless folly, if I am doomed to repeat the same painful mistakes? Guessing no, because sometimes there are some deeper forces I am not consciously aware of to commit horribly bad actions, such as intentional murder. Also perhaps there are even more deeper impactful lessons to come, going beyond conscious levels, whether it is painful or pleasant or whatever.

Examples of pains: Deep painful physical trauma, such as very painful physical injuries like sprained ankles and legs, which eventually faded & healed make it seem illusion like a dream.
Also: deep psychological trauma about parents' divorce, bickering arguments, job loss, and death of family members.
All these trauma makes the younger me think that life is just a chain of pointless sufferings: And I think maybe all these traumatic lessons will teach the folly of reincarnating further in Samsaric life.
But that is not all true, as there are still enjoyable hobbies that bring happiness (eg. Buddhist temple volunteer work/meditations/eating/jogging/bicycling/video games), albeit all temporarily that all fade away too like a dream.
....etc.... ~ Ok, I am sorry about these cyclic points I made, stopping it there.
All conditioned phenomena
Are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow,
Like dew or a flash of lightning;
Thus we shall perceive them

- Diamond Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha
So thinking about this further, Gigoris has a made wise point about: "where is the guarantee (where is your proof) that a long and tortuous death is better (or more beneficial) than a quick one by one's-own-hand?".
Death is Death, no matter how different the circumstances of individual deaths may seen.

Anyways, I also agree with kausalya about the no harm, in general.
I meant no one any intentional harm in this post: not to encourage any further suicide or death-seekers, nor any further obsessive-attachment-clinging to life, I swear.
Feel free to call me a literal wishy-washy guessing fool ;)

Wishing all sentient beings the quick attainment of Full Enlightment & Nirvana & Buddhahood, and never suffer again
Bowing out ~ well wisher

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Grigoris
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:19 am

So what actually is it about suicide that makes death via suicide less auspicious than a natural death?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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well wisher
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by well wisher » Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:19 am
So what actually is it about suicide that makes death via suicide less auspicious than a natural death?
I am not entirely arguing against you; The more I think about it, the more I agree that your model is quite valid - in which the last moment of death plays a extremely important role, especially regarding mental wellness.

A suicide is a death full of extreme. mental anguish, the suicider thinks "Too much suffering, I cannot go on!"
Other natural deaths, the thoughts can be resolved mentally as "meh, I tried my best, the rest factors are out of my control, not entirely my fault!", and the final thoughts are likely to be more peaceful death.

The other model I had learned over the internet, taught that the lessons and experiences throughout ones lifetime, can help resolve the anguish in death, leaving the deceased more satisfied at the point of death: like a flashback replay of the life's journey right after death.

In that case, the suicides self-seeked death is also usually less advantageous, compared to other natural deaths out of one's direct control.

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Grigoris
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:43 am

What about a well considered and rational decision to self-euthanise?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Toenail
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Toenail » Sat May 30, 2020 5:26 pm

Suicide is an action. It creates karmic seeds that will ripen. Death by natural causes is just exhaustion of merit.

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Grigoris
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm

Toenail wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:26 pm
Suicide is an action. It creates karmic seeds that will ripen. Death by natural causes is just exhaustion of merit.
Good point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nemo
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Nemo » Sat May 30, 2020 7:24 pm

Maybe not so natural. The global Covid lockdown is causing many suicides. I know 2 people who have had Covid. Both are fine now, but one young man in my extended circle committed suicide. Probably because of financial problems.

Nepal seems to have been hit quite hard.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-0 ... 089729.htm

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Grigoris
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 30, 2020 7:39 pm

And the winner is:

https://medium.com/@indica/covid-underd ... 0c162427c2
COVID Underdogs: Mongolia

The best COVID-19 response in the world

Mongolia has had the best COVID-19 response in the world. Not only do they have zero deaths, they have zero local transmissions. Mongolia didn’t flatten the curve or crush the curve — they were just like ‘frak curves’. In Mongolia, there simply wasn't an epidemic at all.

And no, they didn’t just get lucky.

Starting in January, Mongolia executed a perfect public health response, and they have never let up the pressure since. COVID-19 did not just leave Mongolia alone. Mongolia kicked its ass.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


Orgyen
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Orgyen » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:34 am

A person in despair or sorrow succeed in suicide would go through extremely painful experiences before death and undergo the episode of suicide every 7 days or in a cyclic sequence pattern until the karma exhausted or interference from another forces .

confusedlayman
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:45 pm

Rebirth in lower realms than human for worlding.. because sucide of worlding is based on sence of self, attachment or avertion and confusion... hence confused death is death of afficltion...

Arhants or other buddhist who are on way to enlightment sucide means minimum human max brahma world or pure abode... because they are on right track, had merit and good karma, unconfused death... they just cant use this body to proceed further so instead of simply enduring physical suffering and giving stress to doctors and other attended, they leave this body and continue their practice elsewhere...

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PeterC
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by PeterC » Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:57 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:43 am
What about a well considered and rational decision to self-euthanise?
In a phowa teaching by a very senior lama, I heard the following explanation. If one has definitive signs of exhaustion of life, and has attempted appropriate long-life practices without changing these signs, then it is permissible and indeed encouraged to engage in the practice with the intention of achieving the transference - in other words, ending this life.

If one's prognosis from a terminal disease was that you would soon be incapable, in body and/or mind, of engaging in the appropriate end-of-life practices, I don't see why the same reasoning wouldn't apply. However I did not ask that question or receive that specific answer. And the lama in question was very explicit about the need for the right signs, or else one would be creating extremely serious negative karma.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:18 am

Empty Cloud wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 am
Dear all,

I would like to discuss the repercussions of suicide as compared to normal death conditions.
long story short: for commiting suicide you already had got into poor mind conditions that will last far beyhond your death. i mean that the torment doesn't ends in suicide, but you get more into a selfdestructive spiral where sorrow, negative self pity, self flagellation, and alike, are the general mood. even if good karma rippen you wont get happy.

it gradually turns everything into a each time more severe selfdestructive conduct, for a long time, regardless the realm you find yourself on.

amanitamusc
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:46 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:18 am
Empty Cloud wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 am
Dear all,

I would like to discuss the repercussions of suicide as compared to normal death conditions.
long story short: for commiting suicide you already had got into poor mind conditions that will last far beyhond your death. i mean that the torment doesn't ends in suicide, but you get more into a selfdestructive spiral where sorrow, negative self pity, self flagellation, and alike, are the general mood. even if good karma rippen you wont get happy.

it gradually turns everything into a each time more severe selfdestructive conduct, for a long time, regardless the realm you find yourself on.
There is no cookie cutter answer.It all depends on on each individual case.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:53 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:46 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:18 am
Empty Cloud wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 am
Dear all,

I would like to discuss the repercussions of suicide as compared to normal death conditions.
long story short: for commiting suicide you already had got into poor mind conditions that will last far beyhond your death. i mean that the torment doesn't ends in suicide, but you get more into a selfdestructive spiral where sorrow, negative self pity, self flagellation, and alike, are the general mood. even if good karma rippen you wont get happy.

it gradually turns everything into a each time more severe selfdestructive conduct, for a long time, regardless the realm you find yourself on.
There is no cookie cutter answer.It all depends on on each individual case.
nevertheless, there ain't a happy ending for it.

amanitamusc
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:51 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:53 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:46 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:18 am


long story short: for commiting suicide you already had got into poor mind conditions that will last far beyhond your death. i mean that the torment doesn't ends in suicide, but you get more into a selfdestructive spiral where sorrow, negative self pity, self flagellation, and alike, are the general mood. even if good karma rippen you wont get happy.

it gradually turns everything into a each time more severe selfdestructive conduct, for a long time, regardless the realm you find yourself on.
There is no cookie cutter answer.It all depends on on each individual case.
nevertheless, there ain't a happy ending for it.
Yes it can be very hard on the loved ones left behind but it is also hard on the same folks to watch helplessly the ones they love rot away.In the latter example some are happy to see them go, free from that horrible feeling of watching them squirm with pain and confusion.

krish5
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by krish5 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:32 am

"I would like to discuss the repercussions of suicide as compared to normal death conditions."

I just saw this thread now. I hope all is well with the opening posters friends and family, and with him or herself. This OP was posted near the end of 2019. I hope this thread helped you in some way.

radu
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Selfless suicide, selfish suicide

Post by radu » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:52 pm

I feel it is possible that a propensity to suicide may be ingrained in the bija seeds, awkakened or not awakened.
Talking someone out of suicide may be a generous act, but the fact remains: it is a a thought that crossed the mind once.
A "succesfull" suicide is not lighter than a failed attempt. The dark side, shadow, teaches is not the fear of the outcome that drive people away from "nothingness" but not proper integration of it.
It may not be despair or false hope which give rise to the thought, yes, there are clever meanderings that promise a way out, not by secession of life -- if there is no one else involved... -- not to "proper" re-incarnation but as self punishment.

Bardo is not complete without Gita.

Varis
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Re: What happens after suicide?

Post by Varis » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:41 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:57 am
If one's prognosis from a terminal disease was that you would soon be incapable, in body and/or mind, of engaging in the appropriate end-of-life practices, I don't see why the same reasoning wouldn't apply. However I did not ask that question or receive that specific answer. And the lama in question was very explicit about the need for the right signs, or else one would be creating extremely serious negative karma.
In his book Sinister Yogis, David Gordon White talks a bit about how some Hindu and Buddhist yogis (some of the latter weren't even tantric practitioners) would commit "yogic suicide" when they felt like there was nothing more they could accomplish in that lifetime, or as a method of attaining liberation in of itself. I believe Dr. James Mallison has also spoken on the subject. Some of these yogi's were perfectly healthy too.

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