Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

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PeterC
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by PeterC »

This is an excellent idea, count me in too please.
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jake
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:17 pm Yes, I am interested.

When do we start?
I will commit to reading up to the start of Chapter 1 (pg. 54 book, 122 pdf) of the Pruden translation by 14th Sunday.
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Grigoris
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

jake wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:38 am
Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:17 pm Yes, I am interested.

When do we start?
I will commit to reading up to the start of Chapter 1 (pg. 54 book, 122 pdf) of the Pruden translation by 14th Sunday.
The introduction is 60 pages and seems to just be an outline of the content. Is it worth the effort? Personally I think we should dive into the text. Maybe take Malcolm's advice, or start from page 1 of the actual text?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:00 pm
jake wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:38 am
Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:17 pm Yes, I am interested.

When do we start?
I will commit to reading up to the start of Chapter 1 (pg. 54 book, 122 pdf) of the Pruden translation by 14th Sunday.
The intorduction is 60 pages and seems to just be an outline of the content. Is it worth the effort? Personally I think we should dive into the text. Maybe take Malcolm's advice or start from page 1 of the actual text?
The intro provides historical material mainly. Better to dive in.
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Queequeg
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

How about this proposal:

By June 14 read:

Introduction (Optional) (pp. 1-49)

Chapter One: The Dhatus; General Introduction (pp. 55-58)

That would give us all time to get started and read the intro if inclined. Let's see how the discussion goes at that point and then maybe work out a road map for the rest of the chapter.

IME, I started reading this several years ago and got a little overwhelmed by the gods falling up and down the heavens and trying to understand why some heavens would be bypassed.

Anyway, that should be a manageable first step. If folks think that's not ambitious enough, let's discuss.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Grigoris
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:35 pm How about this proposal:

By June 14 read:

Introduction (Optional) (pp. 1-49)

Chapter One: The Dhatus; General Introduction (pp. 55-58)

That would give us all time to get started and read the intro if inclined. Let's see how the discussion goes at that point and then maybe work out a road map for the rest of the chapter.

IME, I started reading this several years ago and got a little overwhelmed by the gods falling up and down the heavens and trying to understand why some heavens would be bypassed.

Anyway, that should be a manageable first step. If folks think that's not ambitious enough, let's discuss.
I am in.

How will the discussion take place? In this thread? I a new thread? Each section to be discussed in a new thread? Who will kick off the discussion? In which sub-forum?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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jake
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:39 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:35 pm How about this proposal:

By June 14 read:

Introduction (Optional) (pp. 1-49)

Chapter One: The Dhatus; General Introduction (pp. 55-58)

That would give us all time to get started and read the intro if inclined. Let's see how the discussion goes at that point and then maybe work out a road map for the rest of the chapter.

IME, I started reading this several years ago and got a little overwhelmed by the gods falling up and down the heavens and trying to understand why some heavens would be bypassed.

Anyway, that should be a manageable first step. If folks think that's not ambitious enough, let's discuss.
I am in.

How will the discussion take place? In this thread? I a new thread? Each section to be discussed in a new thread? Who will kick off the discussion? In which sub-forum?
Thanks, QQ for the extra "optional" work ;-) Sounds like a good plan and I'm in. Happy to discuss here in this thread but if experience from my http://forum.buddhistbook.club forum holds true we're going to need our own sub-forum.
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Queequeg
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:39 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:35 pm How about this proposal:

By June 14 read:

Introduction (Optional) (pp. 1-49)

Chapter One: The Dhatus; General Introduction (pp. 55-58)

That would give us all time to get started and read the intro if inclined. Let's see how the discussion goes at that point and then maybe work out a road map for the rest of the chapter.

IME, I started reading this several years ago and got a little overwhelmed by the gods falling up and down the heavens and trying to understand why some heavens would be bypassed.

Anyway, that should be a manageable first step. If folks think that's not ambitious enough, let's discuss.
I am in.

How will the discussion take place? In this thread? I a new thread? Each section to be discussed in a new thread? Who will kick off the discussion? In which sub-forum?
[Jake posted while I was writing this]

Good questions! Not sure. I've done a book club on a similar forum before, and Jake has experience with one as well, so maybe he has some input.

This is what I'd propose -

We keep it in this sub where it will be moderated. This will help the discussions stay on track. If a digression comes up that is showing general interest beyond the "regular" participants in the thread and that would be more appropriate for the usual free flowing DW conversation style, it can always be split out to the appropriate sub. A dedicated sub for the book club would be great. Theoretically, it could have several readings going on at once. I think it should be moderated however we do it.

Let's do a separate thread for each section - we can figure the threads will be here indefinitely and that would make it easier for people to locate in the future as well as allow for discussions on particular subjects to continue or be revisited even as we move on to different sections without derailing those discussions.

Maybe we can try having a rotating discussion "leader" - someone who can start the thread with a brief overview of the reading and then highlight things that they find important or meaningful, and maybe a question or two to get the discussion rolling.

I guess I'm kind of modeling this after the seminar model you find in university.

So for this first section - do we have a volunteer (sacrificial lamb)? :tongue: No pressure really.

Not it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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jake
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:22 pm Maybe we can try having a rotating discussion "leader" - someone who can start the thread with a brief overview of the reading and then highlight things that they find important or meaningful, and maybe a question or two to get the discussion rolling.

I guess I'm kind of modeling this after the seminar model you find in university.

So for this first section - do we have a volunteer (sacrificial lamb)? :tongue: No pressure really.

Not it.
I like this approach.

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Queequeg
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

I'd like to say, I'm excited to read this with you guys. Having a few years of water cooler talk, I'm really looking forward to learning with you and from you. I really appreciate the diverse experiences you guys bring.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Dhammanando »

The website of the Research Institute of Sanskrit Manuscripts at Beijing University used to host Dr. Fan Jingjing's edition of the Sanskrit text of the Bhāṣyaṃ, along with interlinear Chinese translations by Paramārtha and Xuanzang. For some reason they've taken them down now, but luckily I downloaded all the files some years ago. The attached zip file is the html edition of the opening chapter.
Dhātunirdeśaḥ.zip
(294.14 KiB) Downloaded 40 times
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Grigoris
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

PeterC wrote:...
Well, that's it then. PeterC leads the first reading.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Queequeg
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

You snooze you lose!

Probably a good choice anyway.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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PeterC
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by PeterC »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm
PeterC wrote:...
Well, that's it then. PeterC leads the first reading.
Could I get an extension on my homework? Happy to do the second but the next ten days for me are going to be very busy at work, I can do the reading but I doubt I can write the book report in time
Malcolm
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:14 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm
PeterC wrote:...
Well, that's it then. PeterC leads the first reading.
Could I get an extension on my homework? Happy to do the second but the next ten days for me are going to be very busy at work, I can do the reading but I doubt I can write the book report in time
The main point here is not to understand the meaning of the term abhidharma here, the main is to understand the meaning of prajna.
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PeterC
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by PeterC »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:14 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm
PeterC wrote:...
Well, that's it then. PeterC leads the first reading.
Could I get an extension on my homework? Happy to do the second but the next ten days for me are going to be very busy at work, I can do the reading but I doubt I can write the book report in time
Also are we going with the Pruden translation? Is that available anywhere in electronic form? It's going to take Amazon 2-3 weeks to get a physical copy to my location
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Queequeg
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

Volunteers for the first week?

Its only three pages...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Grigoris
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

I'll do it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:04 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:14 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm Well, that's it then. PeterC leads the first reading.
Could I get an extension on my homework? Happy to do the second but the next ten days for me are going to be very busy at work, I can do the reading but I doubt I can write the book report in time
Also are we going with the Pruden translation? Is that available anywhere in electronic form? It's going to take Amazon 2-3 weeks to get a physical copy to my location
I am waiting on a physical copy of the Pruden translation too. Somehow I do not think it is going to be all that different to the Gelong Lodro version. I have only found the Gelong Lodro version available online, so until my physical copy arrives...

I guess part of our project will be to compare the two versions too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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jake
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Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

You eager beavers jumping ahead to the first chapter are missing out on some entertaining tidbits...
Pruden, pp xxiii wrote:At approximately this same time (the middle of 1966) a xerox copy of the Romanized Sanskrit text of the First Chapter (the Dhatuntrdesa) of the Abhidharmakosabhasyam began to circulate privately among the students in the Department of Indian and Buddhist Studies at Tokyo University. I was told that this copy was typed out from photographs secretely taken of a manuscript copy of the Abhidharmakosabhasyam discovered by Rahula Samkrtyayana at the Sa-lu Monastery in Tibet in May of 1934. The photographs were taken of the manuscript which was then kept at the K. P. Jayaswal Research Institute, Patna; the desire of the Japanese to see the original text of the Abhidharmakosabhasyam was so great, and the publication of this text had been delayed so long, that "drastic means" were called for, and, I was later told, a Japanese nun had secretely taken pictures of the manuscript and brought them back to Japan.
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