Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:35 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:24 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:16 pm I'm in favor of a new sub but only have my maybe ocd concern about having too many subs on the board. Maybe a sub in this sub so there isn't too much fuss with permissions? I don't know much about the software admin issues.
It is the same amount of work.

Maybe the new sub-forum should be under the Academic Discussion sub-forum.
Got it.

Not in favor of the academic sub because as Malcolm touched on above, we're not reading the text as an academic endeavor are we? I'd like to frame the reading as practice even maybe include a verse dedicating the merit at the start? That last part is just a spontaneous thought now. It would add some solemnity to this and bring it formally into the realm of practice.

Maybe a book club sub would be the appropriate thing to do?
As long as we have a sub-forum low on noise that keeps all the discussion together.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 32624
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:10 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:00 pm

Its seems sangpo takes 25 pages to translated what is 10 pages in Pruden. I'm guessing Sangpo uses footnotes, whereas Pruden uses endnotes, as being part of it? Are Sangpo's footnotes worth it? Footnotes are often where you find the juicy stuff.
The footnotes are largely a distraction to the text. They are relevant mainly for scholars, but not practitioners.
You might find yourself leaned on as an interactive footnote generator. :) よろしくおねがいいたします。
:woohoo:
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

Norwegian wrote:...
You interested? I know you like Abhidharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 11022
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:17 pm Sorry - I saw the page numbers in the 200s and got confused. Was meaning to look at the text (Pruden) and figure out what you were proposing. Now I understand. So Greg is proposing Chapter One - from the intro up through the Rupa Skandha section.

In Pruden that's pp. 55-66.

That seems reasonable. I'd hesitate to go more than that because I imagine there is a lot to unpack even in just those few pages.

Aside - that section of the text in Pruden is much shorter than the Sangpo translation. Makes me curious about all those notes in there. Feeling like this might have to be moved up the wishlist.
People really need to integrate what Vasubandhu has to say about prajñā. So by way of topics for reflection:

What is the distinction between non-afflicted ignorance and afflictive ignorance?
Why does this matter?
Reflect on the meaning of prajñā.
What is the distinction between pure and impure prajñā?
Why can impure dharmas only be extinguished by prajñā?

The first three verses should be well anchored before continuing on to verse four. These three verses should serve as the basis for further discussion before moving on to verse 4, etc.
Let's take note an integrate this into the opening thread.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:58 pmWhat is the distinction between non-afflicted ignorance and afflictive ignorance?
Wait, what? Non-afflicted ignorance? Is that even a thing? Isn't ignorance to basic affliction which other's arise from?

Or do you mean like ignorance of calculus (for example), as opposed to ignorance of the Four Noble Truths?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 32624
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:58 pmWhat is the distinction between non-afflicted ignorance and afflictive ignorance?
Wait, what? Non-afflicted ignorance? Is that even a thing? Isn't ignorance to basic affliction which other's arise from?

Or do you mean like ignorance of calculus (for example), as opposed to ignorance of the Four Noble Truths?
As I said, there is a lot more up to unpack in the first three verse than one might realize.
User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 11022
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm, to be clear - is it your suggestion that we reign in our first reading and stick with the general introduction, taking the time to unpack as much as we can? This would be, as originally proposed, pp. 55-58 in Pruden.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Malcolm
Posts: 32624
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:38 pm Malcolm, to be clear - is it your suggestion that we reign in our first reading and stick with the general introduction, taking the time to unpack as much as we can? This would be, as originally proposed, pp. 55-58 in Pruden.
I am suggesting that one really takes the time to unpack the meaning of the first three verses. An entire commentary could be written on them alone.
Malcolm
Posts: 32624
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:58 pmWhat is the distinction between non-afflicted ignorance and afflictive ignorance?
Wait, what? Non-afflicted ignorance? Is that even a thing? Isn't ignorance to basic affliction which other's arise from?

Or do you mean like ignorance of calculus (for example), as opposed to ignorance of the Four Noble Truths?
Non-afflictive ignorance, as the treatise states, is the ignorance experienced by śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas. They are liberated, but they are not omniscient about the entire path to buddhahood. Their lack of omniscience however, that is, their nonafflictive ignorance, is not a cause for them to take rebirth in samsara.

The first verse's commentary is an indication that perhaps Vasubandhu was a Mahāyāni from the beginning, or had already begun to embrace Mahāyāna by the time he wrote the commentary to the root verses.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

To tell you the truth, I haven't started on the first chapter yet. :emb:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
jake
Global Moderator
Posts: 1445
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:58 pm Non-afflictive ignorance, as the treatise states, is the ignorance experienced by śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas. They are liberated, but they are not omniscient about the entire path to buddhahood. Their lack of omniscience however, that is, their nonafflictive ignorance, is not a cause for them to take rebirth in samsara.

The first verse's commentary is an indication that perhaps Vasubandhu was a Mahāyāni from the beginning, or had already begun to embrace Mahāyāna by the time he wrote the commentary to the root verses.
Ah, regular ol' Bodhi (instead of Annutarasamyaksambodhi)...haven't really thought of it from the other side of the coin, as nonafflictive ignorance.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:58 pm The first verse's commentary is an indication that perhaps Vasubandhu was a Mahāyāni from the beginning, or had already begun to embrace Mahāyāna by the time he wrote the commentary to the root verses.


Would that have been before or after he cut out his tongue? :tongue:
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

jake wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:58 pm Non-afflictive ignorance, as the treatise states, is the ignorance experienced by śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas. They are liberated, but they are not omniscient about the entire path to buddhahood. Their lack of omniscience however, that is, their nonafflictive ignorance, is not a cause for them to take rebirth in samsara.

The first verse's commentary is an indication that perhaps Vasubandhu was a Mahāyāni from the beginning, or had already begun to embrace Mahāyāna by the time he wrote the commentary to the root verses.
Ah, regular ol' Bodhi (instead of Annutarasamyaksambodhi)...haven't really thought of it from the other side of the coin, as nonafflictive ignorance.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:58 pm The first verse's commentary is an indication that perhaps Vasubandhu was a Mahāyāni from the beginning, or had already begun to embrace Mahāyāna by the time he wrote the commentary to the root verses.


Would that have been before or after he cut out his tongue? :tongue:
He didn't have a lot to say after his conversion. :tongue:

The experience left him speechless.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
zerwe
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by zerwe »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:58 pmWhat is the distinction between non-afflicted ignorance and afflictive ignorance?
Wait, what? Non-afflicted ignorance? Is that even a thing? Isn't ignorance to basic affliction which other's arise from?

Or do you mean like ignorance of calculus (for example), as opposed to ignorance of the Four Noble Truths?
Did I miss something or did we somehow already start? From the little taste of what I have read in the dhatu section it seems to be a discussion surrounding the "two obscurations." If not, how different is it from that type of focus?

Shaun :namaste:
User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 11022
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Queequeg »

No, not started yet.
We will start discussion on 6/14.

So folks - let's hold up on discussion until we're all on the same page.

QQ
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
User avatar
jake
Global Moderator
Posts: 1445
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by jake »

For those that own the Sangpo translation, how is the quality of your books? The binding on mine just split after 6 days and I'm curious if it is a just one-off or if all the books are low quality? (Returning to the online seller is going to be a pain).

Thanks!
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

jake wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:31 pm For those that own the Sangpo translation, how is the quality of your books? The binding on mine just split after 6 days and I'm curious if it is a just one-off or if all the books are low quality? (Returning to the online seller is going to be a pain).

Thanks!
Books of that size will always split unless the binding quality is super high quality. If it was super high quality, it would not sell so cheaply. That is why, generally speaking, it is better to produce books this size in a number of volumes or on super thin paper.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

Started on the dhatus chapter today.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
amanitamusc
Posts: 1753
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by amanitamusc »

I found these :twothumbsup: very good on this subject.
https://www.amazon.com/Gateway-Knowledg ... 9627341290
For about 20 bucks you can get all four used.
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2611
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by PeterC »

Reading the first few verses at present
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club

Post by Grigoris »

amanitamusc wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:15 am I found these :twothumbsup: very good on this subject.
https://www.amazon.com/Gateway-Knowledg ... 9627341290
For about 20 bucks you can get all four used.
Nice!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Post Reply

Return to “Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club”