AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

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Grigoris
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AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Grigoris »

Extensive exposition of the conditioned factors (samskrta)

the conditioned factors are the fivefold aggregates:
material form, etc.
The skandha.
Etymological meaning of samskrta
"that which has been
made (krta) by causes or conditions [pratyaya] co-existing in assemblage (sametya,
sambhuya)".
So far, so good.
"that which has been made ... ", also
applies (1) to future factors, (2) to present factors, as well as (3) to past factors; in
fact, a factor (dharma) does not change its nature or type [jatiyatvat] by changing
its time period.
Really? So what happens when ice (solid) becomes water (liquid) and then evaporates as steam (gas)? Is there not a change in type?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Grigoris »

Synonyms for conditioned factors

The conditioned factors are (1) the course or time periods; they are
(2) the ground of discourse; they are (3) endowed with escape;
(4) endowed with causes.

...conditioned factors are called time period because they are devoured
(adyante) by impermanence [anityata]
Does this not contradict the closing statement in the previous post?
...the ground of discourse
They are the basis for discourse, not the discourse per se.
...endowed with escape
They need to be escaped from.
...Conditioned factors depend on causes
Somehow I think this is a better turn of phrase than "endowed with causes".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Grigoris »

Synonyms for impure conditioned factors;
Appropriative aggregates (upii.danaskandha);
When [the conditioned factors] are impure, they are appropriative
aggregates.
Appropriate karma phala/vipakka?
The upadanaskandhas are thus called...
Endowed with conflict (sarana)
Since they cause or attract harm.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:44 pm
Extensive exposition of the conditioned factors (samskrta)

the conditioned factors are the fivefold aggregates:
material form, etc.
The skandha.
Etymological meaning of samskrta
"that which has been
made (krta) by causes or conditions [pratyaya] co-existing in assemblage (sametya,
sambhuya)".
So far, so good.
"that which has been made ... ", also
applies (1) to future factors, (2) to present factors, as well as (3) to past factors; in
fact, a factor (dharma) does not change its nature or type [jatiyatvat] by changing
its time period.
Really? So what happens when ice (solid) becomes water (liquid) and then evaporates as steam (gas)? Is there not a change in type?
Later, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible. However, states of matter such as solids, liquids, and gasses depend on the balance of the four elements in material entities and the environment. In other words, one has ice when it is cold, and when it is very hot, water evaporates into a gas.

But the atoms themselves, according to Abhidharma typology of the Sarvastivadins do not undergo change or alteration. The Sautrantikas, you will see, reject the notion of partless atoms because they have are also claimed to have sides, etc. It is important to keep in mind that the root verses present a version of Sarvastivadin doctrine, that of the Vaibhāsikas. The commentaries mainly critiques these positions from the Sautrantika position.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective, what should our disposition be toward the irreducible dharmas in the Sarvasitvadin view?

Also, is it possible to give us a quick and dirty comparison of Sarvastivadin, Vaibhasika, and Sautrantika views, and how we as Mahayanis should approach them?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:03 pm Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective...
Actually, it is important NOT to approach this text from a Mahāyāna point of view.

One should attempt to emulate the ancient Indian masters, Buddhist and Hindu, approaching a text from its own point of view while learning it, and save the higher tenet system critiques for later.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:03 pm Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective, what should our disposition be toward the irreducible dharmas in the Sarvasitvadin view?

Also, is it possible to give us a quick and dirty comparison of Sarvastivadin, Vaibhasika, and Sautrantika views, and how we as Mahayanis should approach them?
The four tenet systems can be reduced to these four axioms:

atoms
moments
mind
emptiness.

These is the barest essence of the four tenet systems in ascending order.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:05 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:03 pm Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective...
Actually, it is important NOT to approach this text from a Mahāyāna point of view.

One should attempt to emulate the ancient Indian masters, Buddhist and Hindu, approaching a text from its own point of view while learning it, and save the higher tenet system critiques for later.
That makes sense. Thank you.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:32 pmLater, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope. If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:32 pmLater, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope. If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?
I think for the same reason that you can't have atman in Abhidhamma - All 5 skandha are needed for a being to arise, and 4 of them are aspects of mind. Remove one, and there is no being. Which of the skandha would be that irreducible mind element?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:32 pmLater, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope. If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?
Western Sarvastivadins (Gandharis) subscribed to an inexpressible person theory (pudgalavādin). This is rejected by Vaibhasikas (Kashmiris).

Partless particles are rejected by Sautrantikas. They favor partless moments as irreducible.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:15 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:32 pmLater, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope. If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?
I think for the same reason that you can't have atman in Abhidhamma - All 5 skandha are needed for a being to arise, and 4 of them are aspects of mind. Remove one, and there is no being. Which of the skandha would be that irreducible mind element?
Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:09 pm Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.
Not to digress too far, but, how did they explain the continuity between death and rebirth? And what happened to them?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Malcolm
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:09 pm Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.
Not to digress too far, but, how did they explain the continuity between death and rebirth? And what happened to them?
We refuted the shit out of them.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:32 am
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:09 pm Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.
Not to digress too far, but, how did they explain the continuity between death and rebirth? And what happened to them?
We refuted the shit out of them.
:rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Queequeg »

From the Pruden translation -

Commentary to 7a-b.
Even though the expression samskrta signifies "that which has been created...," it also applies to future dharma and to present dharmas; in fact, a dharma does not change its nature by changing its time period. In the same way, one calls milk in the udder dugdha, "that which has been drawn", and kndling indhana, or "wood to be burned."
Am I reading this correctly to conclude they believe dharmas persist in the three times?

This I am concluding relates to the comment above about irreducible atoms?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:10 pm From the Pruden translation -

Commentary to 7a-b.
Even though the expression samskrta signifies "that which has been created...," it also applies to future dharma and to present dharmas; in fact, a dharma does not change its nature by changing its time period. In the same way, one calls milk in the udder dugdha, "that which has been drawn", and kndling indhana, or "wood to be burned."
Am I reading this correctly to conclude they believe dharmas persist in the three times?
You're getting a bit ahead of yourself, but yes, according to the Vaibhāṣikas.
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