AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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Grigoris
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AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Grigoris »

Matter or material form is (1-5) the five sense-faculties, (6-10) the
five object-referents [or object-fields of the five sense-faculties],
arid (11) the non-informative.
So matter/material form is the five sense organs (eyes, ears, tongue, body and nose) and their objects (visual, aural, gustatory, bodily and olfactory sensations). It seems though that "indriya" does not refer just to the physical sense organs, but to the related sense consciousness as well, to the process of sensing.

As for 11. The endnote says:
The SA.IV.Glossary.520 describes them as follows:
avijnapti-rupa: Non-informative matter. This is a special type of matter (rupa)
which constitutes a non-informative action (avijnapti-karma). It is non-resistant and
invisible, and comes into existence in dependence on the force of a volition (cetana),
an informative action and a set of great elements (mahabhuta). It is a special type of
derived matter (upadaya-rupa) which is not comprised of atoms (paramanu).
avijnapti-karma: Non-informative action. Unlike an informative action (vijnapti
karma) which informs us of the mental state of the doer, this is a karmic force which,
once projected by a bodily or vocal action (karma), continues to exist as a series
invisibly; hence, non-informative.
Clear as mud, right?
10a. Vaibhasikas: Visible form...

1. Color is fourfold:
i. blue,
ii. yellow,
iii. red,
iv. white.
Interestingly, based on pigment colours and not on light.
2. Shape (iv. 3c) is eightfold:
i. long,
ii. short,
iii. square,
iv. round,
v. high,
vi. low,
vii. even [or regular],
viii. uneven [or irregular].
Strange that "triangle" is not one of the basic shapes since it occurs everywhere in nature and is the basis for simple construction.
Some make one [additional] color out of the firmament, which appears
as a wall of lapis-lazuli...
What? Why?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:25 am
Matter or material form is (1-5) the five sense-faculties, (6-10) the
five object-referents [or object-fields of the five sense-faculties],
arid (11) the non-informative.
So matter/material form is the five sense organs (eyes, ears, tongue, body and nose) and their objects (visual, aural, gustatory, bodily and olfactory sensations). It seems though that "indriya" does not refer just to the physical sense organs, but to the related sense consciousness as well, to the process of sensing.

As for 11. The endnote says:
The SA.IV.Glossary.520 describes them as follows:
avijnapti-rupa: Non-informative matter. This is a special type of matter (rupa)
which constitutes a non-informative action (avijnapti-karma). It is non-resistant and
invisible, and comes into existence in dependence on the force of a volition (cetana),
an informative action and a set of great elements (mahabhuta). It is a special type of
derived matter (upadaya-rupa) which is not comprised of atoms (paramanu).
avijnapti-karma: Non-informative action. Unlike an informative action (vijnapti
karma) which informs us of the mental state of the doer, this is a karmic force which,
once projected by a bodily or vocal action (karma), continues to exist as a series
invisibly; hence, non-informative.
Clear as mud, right?
Avijnapti is created by taking vows. The discussIon of it is pursued at length in the karma chapter.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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10d. The tangible consists of eleven types

...
10. hunger is that which produces the desire for food
11. thirst (pipasa) is that which produces the desire for drink.

In fact, the words hunger and thirst designate the tangible which produces hunger
and thirst: by hypallage, the cause is designated by the name of
its effect [karya]. In the same way, it is said; { 8 a}
The appearance of the Buddhas is [the cause of] happiness [sukha];
the teaching of the religion is [the cause of] happiness;
the concord of the community is [the cause of] happiness;
the austerity of the monastics who live in concord is [the cause
of] happiness.
Is this saying that food is the cause of hunger and water is the cause of thirst? Wouldn't it be the absence of these which causes...?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:59 amAvijnapti is created by taking vows. The discussIon of it is pursued at length in the karma chapter.
The non-informative ( avijnapti);

11. [Vaibhii~ikas:] - Even in a person whose thought is distracted, or
who is [for a certain time] without thought, there exists a serial
continuity, good or bad, in reliance upon the fundamental material
elements: that, indeed, is what is called non-informative.
How does this differ from the bhavanga citta of the Abhidhamma?

How can this be a wholesome or unwholesome mind state, if there is no attention (and thus no motivation) involved?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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Difference between the elementary substance earth & earth, etc.; 178 F 23-24
What is the difference between the elementary substance earth fprfhivfdhiitu] and
earth [prthivf], between the elementary substance water [abdhiitu] and water [ap], etc?
13. In common usage [lokasa.,,,jiiii], the word earth signifies [actually]
color and shape; the same for [the common usage of the words]
water and fire, [i.e., they signify actually color and shape]. [The
common usage of the word] wind [signifies] either the elementary
substance wind, or else, color and shape.
So when referring to Mahabhuta we are talking about qualities, but in common usage we are referring to something describing a particular colour and shape.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:59 amAvijnapti is created by taking vows. The discussIon of it is pursued at length in the karma chapter.
The non-informative ( avijnapti);

11. [Vaibhii~ikas:] - Even in a person whose thought is distracted, or
who is [for a certain time] without thought, there exists a serial
continuity, good or bad, in reliance upon the fundamental material
elements: that, indeed, is what is called non-informative.
How does this differ from the bhavanga citta of the Abhidhamma?

How can this be a wholesome or unwholesome mind state, if there is no attention (and thus no motivation) involved?
It’s a kind of matter, not mind.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:40 pm
Difference between the elementary substance earth & earth, etc.; 178 F 23-24
What is the difference between the elementary substance earth fprfhivfdhiitu] and
earth [prthivf], between the elementary substance water [abdhiitu] and water [ap], etc?
13. In common usage [lokasa.,,,jiiii], the word earth signifies [actually]
color and shape; the same for [the common usage of the words]
water and fire, [i.e., they signify actually color and shape]. [The
common usage of the word] wind [signifies] either the elementary
substance wind, or else, color and shape.
So when referring to Mahabhuta we are talking about qualities, but in common usage we are referring to something describing a particular colour and shape.
Yes, because the elements themselves are composed of all four elements.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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[Answer:] - Without a doubt, the monad is free from rupana; but a single material
form as a monad (paramanurupa) never exists in an isolated state [prthak]; 186
[however,] in the state of a composite (samghatastha), i.e., being in aggregation, it is susceptible to deterioration and to offering resistance.
Wait on. Is the monad subject to deterioration is is it the composite that breaks down into monads?
[Answer:] - Without a doubt, but they have been, they will be in this state. Whether
past or future, they are of the same nature as the factor that is actually in a state of
resistance. In the same way one calls kindling (indhana) not only the actually burning
wood, but also the [non-burning] wood or fuel
But kindling is not kindling after it is burnt, so there is no continuity of kindling into the future.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:01 pm
[Answer:] - Without a doubt, the monad is free from rupana; but a single material
form as a monad (paramanurupa) never exists in an isolated state [prthak]; 186
[however,] in the state of a composite (samghatastha), i.e., being in aggregation, it is susceptible to deterioration and to offering resistance.
Wait on. Is the monad subject to deterioration is is it the composite that breaks down into monads?
[
It is saying that composites formed of atoms are susceptible to breaking down.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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Here is another point that I forgot: One of the types of tangibles is coldness.

How does this differ from the role of the Mahabhuta Fire? Surely this determines temperature and not some seperate tangible?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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And the last point:

Why would there be (for smell) two tangibles: One of bad odor and one of good/pleasant odor?

This seems to be a discrimination rather than a characteristic. For me it would make more sense to have a single tangible "odor" and then personal discrimination of what constitutes a good or bad odor.

Oh yeah, and the tangibles of sex: male and female.

Why not do as scientists do and have a category gonads (or sexual organ) and then just have different compositions of monads forming the gonads/sexual organs?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:13 pm Here is another point that I forgot: One of the types of tangibles is coldness.

How does this differ from the role of the Mahabhuta Fire? Surely this determines temperature and not some seperate tangible?
Absence of the fire element feels cold. Absence of the earth element results in hunger and lightness. Absence of the water element results in thirst, etc. It is not hard to suss out.

And you are jumping ahead. This is all in verse 10.

Think of all of this as a filing cabinet. You will gradually have all this filled in, but not all at once.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:44 pmAbsence of the fire element feels cold. Absence of the earth element results in hunger and lightness. Absence of the water element results in thirst, etc. It is not hard to suss out.
That is what I thought. Which is why I am asking: Why reference a seperate specific physical factor for the task?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:44 pmAbsence of the fire element feels cold. Absence of the earth element results in hunger and lightness. Absence of the water element results in thirst, etc. It is not hard to suss out.
That is what I thought. Which is why I am asking: Why reference a seperate specific physical factor for the task?
These are the sense objects of the body indriya.
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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After some thought I came to the conclusion that one does not always have to reduce phenomena to their constituent factors, that one can recognise constituent factors (the elements) and their derivatives (indriya).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

Post by Caoimhghín »

Some make one [additional] color out of the firmament, which appears
as a wall of lapis-lazuli...
It looks like they are identifying a second blue based on the blue of the sky. Why? I wouldn't know. I would guess that the blue of the Vaibhasika four colours was somehow different than this blue, perhaps even green.

This would make "blue" here in the Sanskrit, whichever word it be, potentially similar to 青 (ao), which can be either blue or green or any shade in-between contextually.

Colours are hard to be precise about in ancient texts. Homer says the sea is wine-coloured and brass-coloured, etc., Norse poets said Ravens were blue. Colours are subjective.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors

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I've been trying to understand this avijnapti for a while.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=25372

My impression is that its some sort of karmic continuum created by a vow. It is a rupa because it can be broken. (see the commentary).

I still don't get it, but I'll trust the process that we will get there.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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