Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

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boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:19 pm

So now please say it clearly: you mean, CTR can not have been a good teacher, because he was taking alcohol and ... (I don't know what else) ?
Indeed I have made no comment about whether he was a good teacher or bad. So not only are you judging me, you are prejudging me, which is far worse. How do you explain this?

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:27 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Given that you don't accept that the Buddhist Dharma produces the transformation that it claims, in what way do you feel qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers? What's the point? You can't know the mind of another. Whatever happened between Trungpa and his students I am quite sure is only their business and not mine. Just because I personally have no interest in a teacher who uses the methods he does doesn't mean I dismiss the profound transformative power of the Dharma.
In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?

What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Karma Dorje » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:06 pm

boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?
The point is, if you don't believe that Buddhist Dharma (of whatever type) produces the transformative and liberative results that it claims, why are you posting disparaging claims about those that do, whatever their foibles? If you think that it is all just a story that people tell themselves, then you don't even have genuine refuge in the Three Jewels let alone qualification for anything like Vajrayana that depends on refuge. What's the point of trolling a Buddhist board if you don't believe in it?
boda wrote:What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
No, I mean his teaching methods like the quasi-military Dorje Kasung, wearing suits, eating oryoki, etc. Gossiping about the personal life of a guy that's been dead almost 30 years is of no interest to me.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Mkoll
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Mkoll » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:24 pm

Mkoll wrote:
boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
Well, boda?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:57 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
Well, boda?
This doesn't seem to boda well.
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Mkoll
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Mkoll » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:06 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:This doesn't seem to boda well.
That's like a triple or even quadruple entendre.

:thumbsup:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:07 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?
The point is, if you don't believe that Buddhist Dharma (of whatever type) produces the transformative and liberative results that it claims, why are you posting disparaging claims about those that do, whatever their foibles?
Well known facts are not disparaging claims. But I don't understand your question to begin with.

* * WANTING * * to believe, perhaps wanting too desperately, is indeed what the topic is all about.

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:10 am

Mkoll wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
Well, boda?
Well what? All sorts of things change people, including meaning.

The Eightfold Path may indeed lead people to the cessation of suffering. That is certainly a meaningful belief to hold.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:28 am

Boda, you seem to be interested in Trungpa but I'm wondering if you have read any of Trungpa's books, or any books about him?
If not, I suggest you do. A few good memoirs are now available, all on libgen too, by people close to him:

"Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward, whose story about the water into wine incident opened this thread,

"Dragon Thunder: My Life with Chogyam Trungpa" by Diana J. Mukpo, his wife,

"The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks, his "butler" for 7 years,

and this:
"Recalling Chogyam Trungpa" edited by Fabrice Midal
while not a memoir, is a good collection of essays about him by many well-known and interesting people.

To get a feeling for his teaching you could try these:
http://www.shambhala.com/the-profound-t ... harma.html

Why not have a look and see what you think?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Mkoll
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Mkoll » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:50 am

boda wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Mkoll wrote: And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
Well, boda?
Well what? All sorts of things change people, including meaning.

The Eightfold Path may indeed lead people to the cessation of suffering. That is certainly a meaningful belief to hold.
Well if religion offers meaning and that transforms a person, then it is fair to say their practice of the religion transformed them. That shows that what you said below is false and in fact religion can transform people.
boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Ayu
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Ayu » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:26 pm

boda wrote:
So now please say it clearly: you mean, CTR can not have been a good teacher, because he was taking alcohol and ... (I don't know what else) ?
Indeed I have made no comment about whether he was a good teacher or bad. So not only are you judging me, you are prejudging me, which is far worse. How do you explain this?
Easy. :smile: I didn't judge, i asked. And that is why I asked: for not to do prejudging.
Now you see clearly, what snares are hidden in language and perception. That's why we communicate - to clear missunderstandings. While working on that, we produce more and more missunderstandings. :thinking: Strange world.

boda wrote:* * WANTING * * to believe, perhaps wanting too desperately, is indeed what the topic is all about.
This could be or could be not. Who knows it exactly?
From your distance you have only your own mind to judge it. :| That's why such an assumption reveals more about your own mind than about the minds of CTR's deciples. I'm sorry. :geek:
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:29 pm

Apropos of Chogyam Trungpa and belief, did he believe? did he have faith?

According to the 4NTs, the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering. CT clearly ignored many of even the basics of the Eightfold Path. He certainly knew the basics. Can we conclude that did not believe the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering? The only other explanation would seem to be that he simply could not help himself. And if he could not help himself... how could he possibly help others???

Perhaps students who are capable of helping themselves, help themselves.

frank123
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by frank123 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:42 pm

The Art of trolling :zzz:

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Malcolm
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:56 pm

boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces,"

Of course there is such a consensus — Buddhadharma, practiced properly, leads to the reduction and elimination of afflictions which cause birth in samsara, i.e. freedom.

In Mahāyāna, one can also traverse the path to omniscience.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:59 pm

boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
Yes, most definitely.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces,"

Of course there is such a consensus — Buddhadharma, practiced properly, leads to the reduction and elimination of afflictions which cause birth in samsara, i.e. freedom.

In Mahāyāna, one can also traverse the path to omniscience.
So if we asked various Buddhist practitioners what omniscience was, or what enlightenment was, they would all same the same thing. Hmmm... !

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
Yes, most definitely.
How do you know? Please explain yourself, if, you can.

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Malcolm
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:38 pm

boda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
Yes, most definitely.
How do you know? Please explain yourself, if, you can.
I know because I know many of his students. For them, his womanizing and drinking helped them go beyond the limitations of spiritual materialism and concretely understand the meaning of Dharma. His students are some of the best Dharma practitioners there are in Tibetan Buddhism. A great many of them have a concrete understanding of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

The quality of a tree should be known by its fruit, not buy the appearance of its bark.

M
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Berry
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Berry » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:48 pm

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Last edited by Berry on Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:49 pm

You're answering a different question, Malcolm, which is your prerogative.

I asked how you knew that it was a "teaching method." If you know what a teaching method is, and you know that Chogyam Trungpa used alcoholism and womanizing as a teaching method, explain how you know this. Or you can answer a different question if that's easier for you.

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