Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

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boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:49 am

And he could quite possibly turn water into wine. That would certainly have saved a lot of money!

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:13 am

boda wrote:And he could quite possibly turn water into wine. That would certainly have saved a lot of money!
Yup, especially if he could turn it into sake.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Mkoll
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Mkoll » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:10 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
boda wrote:And he could quite possibly turn water into wine. That would certainly have saved a lot of money!
Yup, especially if he could turn it into sake.
:lol:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Ayu
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Ayu » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:09 am

I read the book half now. It is not a matter of believing in CTR. He convinced intelligent people. So he is just another teacher of the same path. He found ways that fitted for the 1970th.
It is also a lesson about not judging from outside. You have to look inside honestly.
And a Lama is not a Buddha. There are still some human weaknesses remaining.
The nub of the matter is compassion. The motivation of the teacher has to be compassion and you have to feel this out of all of his actions.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:45 pm

Ayu wrote:He found ways that fitted for the 1970th.
Oh please, alcoholism, womanizing, and violence fit any age. Are you suggesting he may not have employed these 'teaching methods' had he lived at a different time?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:43 pm

boda wrote:
Ayu wrote:He found ways that fitted for the 1970th.
Oh please, alcoholism, womanizing, and violence fit any age.
They don't seem to go over so well these days.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
boda wrote:
Ayu wrote:He found ways that fitted for the 1970th.
Oh please, alcoholism, womanizing, and violence fit any age.
They don't seem to go over so well these days.
They didn't go over well durning CT's life either. Indeed, they seem to have shortened it. Same with at least one of his student successors who died of aids, and who knowingly gave aids to others.

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kirtu
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:40 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
boda wrote:
Ayu wrote:He found ways that fitted for the 1970th.
Oh please, alcoholism, womanizing, and violence fit any age.
They don't seem to go over so well these days.
:thumbsup:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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rory
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by rory » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:03 am

They didn't go over well durning CT's life either. Indeed, they seem to have shortened it. Same with at least one of his student successors who died of aids, and who knowingly gave aids to others.
this is the kind of thing that scares me: belief in a charismatic figure and then those all too human figures doing as the please, wreaking havoc with peoples lives.
gassho
Rory
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:01 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
boda wrote:And he could quite possibly turn water into wine. That would certainly have saved a lot of money!
Yup, especially if he could turn it into sake.
Just noticed this:
http://chronicleproject.com/stories_469.html

:smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Ayu
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Ayu » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:21 am

rory wrote:
They didn't go over well durning CT's life either. Indeed, they seem to have shortened it. Same with at least one of his student successors who died of aids, and who knowingly gave aids to others.
this is the kind of thing that scares me: belief in a charismatic figure and then those all too human figures doing as the please, wreaking havoc with peoples lives.
gassho
Rory
Yes. There must have been misunderstanding of the dharma. To cheat and to exploit others is definitely not ethical but very harmful.
But there were quite other deciples than such. For example Pema Choedron, a great helper for many seakers.
How come that she didn't follow the lifestyle of the guru and how could she learn so much from a drunkard?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pema_Ch%F6dr%F6n" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:52 am

Ayu wrote:But there were quite other deciples than such. For example Pema Choedron, a great helper for many seakers.
How come that she didn't follow the lifestyle of the guru and how could she learn so much from a drunkard?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pema_Ch%F6dr%F6n
Just another Tibetan Buddhist sap, I guess. As she said in an interview with Helen Tworkov:
My personal teacher did not keep ethical norms and my devotion to him is unshakable.
:shrug:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:15 am

Ayu wrote:How come that she didn't follow the lifestyle of the guru and how could she learn so much from a drunkard?
What did she learn from him? You don't know. But in any case, what's indicated by your point is not how effective CT's 'teaching methods' were, but how inconsequential the practice may be in general. Pema would basically be the same person (not an alcoholic or sex addict) had she never heard of Buddhism. Just as CT would have a strong tendency towards alcoholism and other additions whatever path he traveled. Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.

PeterC
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by PeterC » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:49 am

You always hear the 'bad' stories about him. You rarely hear about how demanding he was in training his students - he didn't allow short-cuts, he produced a lot of very good practitioners who did way more practice than the average Dharma student today. If I only knew about the latter I would have enormous respect for him. If I only knew about the former I would have no respect for him. As it is...it's difficult to say. Could he have achieved the same results without the bad behavior? We will never know.

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Mkoll
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Mkoll » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:36 am

boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

muni
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by muni » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:57 am

good example that it is no good to judge about what one doesn't understand well
Yes.
Also judging others is not helping own practice. We get no teachings by judgement neither. Teaching is by compassion/true love.

:namaste:
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

boda
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by boda » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:55 pm

PeterC wrote:Could he have achieved the same results without the bad behavior?
You make it sound like there was a choice in the matter. In any case, what exactly was the result? We can say the results were mixed, at least. That suggests the results depended primarily on the students and actually has rather little to do with a teacher.

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Ayu
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Ayu » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:18 pm

boda wrote:
PeterC wrote:Could he have achieved the same results without the bad behavior?
You make it sound like there was a choice in the matter. In any case, what exactly was the result? We can say the results were mixed, at least. That suggests the results depended primarily on the students and actually has rather little to do with a teacher.
Can you show me any teacher, who has not this phenomenon? It depends on the student, and it depends on the teacher. It is dependend emergence.
So now please say it clearly: you mean, CTR can not have been a good teacher, because he was taking alcohol and ... (I don't know what else) ? You judge him for his behavior and you don't wanna know about his qualities as a teacher?
Maybe I didn't understand you right.

So, to shorten this: IF you think so, you may. It is your version of what you percieve.
But I don't think you can tell people about him who knew him better. :shrug:
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by Karma Dorje » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:12 pm

boda wrote: What did she learn from him? You don't know. But in any case, what's indicated by your point is not how effective CT's 'teaching methods' were, but how inconsequential the practice may be in general. Pema would basically be the same person (not an alcoholic or sex addict) had she never heard of Buddhism. Just as CT would have a strong tendency towards alcoholism and other additions whatever path he traveled. Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
Given that you don't accept that the Buddhist Dharma produces the transformation that it claims, in what way do you feel qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers? What's the point? You can't know the mind of another. Whatever happened between Trungpa and his students I am quite sure is only their business and not mine. Just because I personally have no interest in a teacher who uses the methods he does doesn't mean I dismiss the profound transformative power of the Dharma.

If you think religion in general and Buddhism in particular merely supplies a narrative, it seems you rather missed the point of the purification of obscurations, gathering of accumulations and the dawning of non-conceptual wisdom. These are not just stories we tell ourselves.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:08 pm

:good:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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