Socialism & Communism

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Grigoris
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:33 am

Malcolm wrote:I am glad you are all in with Orton. Just drop your attachment to the word "socialism" and we won't have anything argue about, and much to discuss.
You would probably gain a lot from dropping your aversion to the word "socialism". The McCarthy era is long gone, praise Stalin!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:54 am

http://noapp4that.org/ says:
The real problem isn’t just that we aren’t investing enough money or effort in technological solutions. It’s that we are asking technology to solve problems that demand human moral intervention—ones that require ethical decisions, behavior change, negotiation, and sacrifice.
By mentally shifting the burden for solving our biggest problems onto technology, we are collectively making fundamental moral and tactical errors; moral, because we are abdicating our own human agency; tactical, because purely technological solutions are inadequate to these tasks.
... and concludes that we must "Change the system". :jedi:

It's a long read but seemed appropriate here.

:namaste:
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:29 am

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I am glad you are all in with Orton. Just drop your attachment to the word "socialism" and we won't have anything argue about, and much to discuss.
You would probably gain a lot from dropping your aversion to the word "socialism".
Cuts both ways, this sword does :-)

Btw, we already do have much to discuss, Malcolm :cheers:
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I am glad you are all in with Orton. Just drop your attachment to the word "socialism" and we won't have anything argue about, and much to discuss.
You would probably gain a lot from dropping your aversion to the word "socialism". The McCarthy era is long gone, praise Stalin!

It is not an aversion, it just isn't the solution the present ecological crisis.
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:16 pm

phpBB [video]
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Jeff H » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:34 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:http://noapp4that.org/ says:
The real problem isn’t just that we aren’t investing enough money or effort in technological solutions. It’s that we are asking technology to solve problems that demand human moral intervention—ones that require ethical decisions, behavior change, negotiation, and sacrifice.
By mentally shifting the burden for solving our biggest problems onto technology, we are collectively making fundamental moral and tactical errors; moral, because we are abdicating our own human agency; tactical, because purely technological solutions are inadequate to these tasks.
... and concludes that we must "Change the system". :jedi:

It's a long read but seemed appropriate here.
Thanks for this, Kim. I agree it is most appropriate, and helpful.

I have little of substance to add to the discussions on DW because I don’t come close to the levels of experience, devotion, and erudition evident in many of the core posters or those who occasionally surface to share pertinent gems. But, because I previously established grounding in a personal Buddhist path that works for me, I believe my path has benefited greatly from reading the brilliance, argumentation, and petty spats on DW for a year and a half.

My comment here is that such benefit derives from the fact that I’m already moving in a positive direction which allows me to grow from reading all the nick-picking and hair-splitting. Personally, I don’t think DW is a good vehicle for beginning Buddhists because it lacks directional guidance.

But socio-political activism is not like a personal Buddhist path and to make any gains at all it needs to provide direction. I see no problem with Buddhists from different traditions standing their ground and parsing every little, nuanced term. Such interaction can strengthen everyone’s personal path. But to affect any kind of social movement, I would think it is more important to seek common ground rather than defend factious turf.

From the article:
Often moral questions are left to the protracted, thoughtful consideration of professional philosophers speaking to one another in formal conferences using an arcane vocabulary. The moral questions that humanity is confronting now are neither abstruse nor academic; they are plain, simple, and urgent. They concern every one of us, and they will surely impact our children and grandchildren. If we put off acknowledging and addressing these questions, we will in effect have made a moral choice—but one whose consequences will be very difficult for any of us to live with.
And this effective video:
phpBB [video]
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:41 am

The green turn I had in mind:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/11 ... iving-for/

The piece's conclusion is as follows:
William Hawes wrote:The only democracy possible is an ecological democracy, with a long-term planning, and rational, sustainably-oriented national constitutions, a 90-95% reduction in fossil fuel use within a few decades at most, and an international consensus which will guarantee safeguards against habitat destruction, even in the face of democratic majority opposition. If we don’t face up to these facts, and collectively and courageously organize, we may in fact be due for the Kali Yuga, as the Hindus prophesied.
and it is Counterpunch, not the Trumpeter...
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:08 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:The green turn I had in mind:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/11 ... iving-for/

The piece's conclusion is as follows:
William Hawes wrote:The only democracy possible is an ecological democracy, with a long-term planning, and rational, sustainably-oriented national constitutions, a 90-95% reduction in fossil fuel use within a few decades at most, and an international consensus which will guarantee safeguards against habitat destruction, even in the face of democratic majority opposition. If we don’t face up to these facts, and collectively and courageously organize, we may in fact be due for the Kali Yuga, as the Hindus prophesied.
and it is Counterpunch, not the Trumpeter...
And none of it is possible without a massive reduction in human population to pre-18th century levels. This global need for population reduction is what freaks out the materialist left more than anything else. Present levels of human population can only be sustained with a petroleum based industrial economy, exactly the same economy that got us into the present mess to begin with. That is why socialism is reactionary and not progressive with respect to ecological issues. He points this out very clearly:
Most mainstream socialists (important exceptions being Ian Angus, Paul Burkett, and John Bellamy Foster) have so far been too committed to a flailing, abstract ideology; specifically, wrongly committed to a Eurocentric, technocratic, anthropocentric worldview; to capture people’s imaginations. Developing an ecological worldview, one that acknowledges our interdependence and interconnectedness with all species, is crucial.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:This global need for population reduction is what freaks out the materialist left more than anything else.
Not really. In my experience, what freaks out all progressive forces (materialist or not) in this respect is not the idea itself but the means of implementing it. The problem is, as you know very well, that population control is one of the least popular ideas in the world, and what freaks people out is, firstly, the sheer opposition to it (i.e., how do we convince people to change their minds on the subject on which they have really strong opinions) and, to a lesser extent, the challenge of finding a means of controlling population that would be at the same time feasible, effective and ethically sound.

Coming back to my point:
Developing an ecological world-view, one that acknowledges our interdependence and interconnectedness with all species, is crucial.
I am not saying your average European socialist is a champion of DGP. I am saying more and more of them are, with DG ideas slowly but steadily seeping into left-wing institutions, including those on the left-wing mainstream. Which the article I liked shows.
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:36 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
with DG ideas slowly but steadily seeping into left-wing institutions, including those on the left-wing mainstream. Which the article I liked shows.

Not nearly rapidly enough.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:This global need for population reduction is what freaks out the materialist left more than anything else.
pol-pot-smiling.jpg
pol-pot-smiling.jpg (216.05 KiB) Viewed 779 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:04 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:the challenge of finding a means of controlling population that would be at the same time feasible, effective and ethically sound...
Birth control, deciding not to procreate, etc. For example, I have no children.
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by justsit » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:24 pm

In the natural world when populations become grossly unbalanced, some type of natural correction usually occurs.

We are already seeing the appearance of "superbugs" for which their are no effective antibiotics. My guess is at some point in the not too distant future we're in for a pandemic.

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:the challenge of finding a means of controlling population that would be at the same time feasible, effective and ethically sound...
Birth control, deciding not to procreate, etc. For example, I have no children.
Neither do I. And in the West, amongst educated people, being childless is increasingly a viable option. Not so much when it comes to the uneducated -- where such a decision is very often tantamount to a social stigma. Exist the West -- even Eastern Europe is decidedly un-Western in this regard -- and not having kids is all too often a looked-down-upon rarity.

Education policies are the way to go here. These things, however, take time -- a lot of it, too. Which we, unfortunately, do not have. Hence the panic when someone drops the phrase "population control."

Another problem is that people on the right by and large have very little desire to go in that direction. Neoliberals mostly do not care. The reactionary right cares a lot, unfortunately.
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:41 pm

The how and why that Communists & their violent Leftist groups use to divide and conquer nations - dialectic with no middle or synthesis.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2256701 ... nts/print/
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Re: Communism & Nazism

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:25 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:Why is anti-Nazism so common yet anti-communism is uncommon? Prager gives several reasons:

phpBB [video]
Do you really think capitalism is synonymous with democracy and freedom?
Now, seriously. My country (Brazil, the same for Chile under Pinochet) was once (from 60's to 80's end) a military dictatorship, with a fully capitalist system, backed up by guess what? USA!

This is pure academic dishonesty (propaganda?), by just showing one side of the coin!
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Re: Communism & Nazism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:48 am

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:Why is anti-Nazism so common yet anti-communism is uncommon? Prager gives several reasons:
Do you really think capitalism is synonymous with democracy and freedom?
Perfect example of a red herring. Both the thread and video are about why anti-nazi & anti-communist coverage differ so. Nothing to do with capitalism at all.
The greatest homage we can pay to truth is to use it. -- Emerson

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by pothigai » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:09 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:The how and why that Communists & their violent Leftist groups use to divide and conquer nations - dialectic with no middle or synthesis.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2256701 ... nts/print/
This article seems to equate Marxism-Leninism with Marxian and Leftist thought as a whole, which is absurd.

Also, it seems to equivocate between seeing dialectical materialism as descriptive (which it is) and prescriptive (which it isn't).

If we are to reject the whole of Marxist thought because of the crimes of Marxist-Leninist states, then it seems we must also reject liberalism and all of its offshoots (including most of leftist thought, which is a product of liberalism); states professing forms of liberal ideas have together been responsible for the deaths of millions of people through wars, genocide and economic policy.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
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Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

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Re: Communism & Nazism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:03 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:Why is anti-Nazism so common yet anti-communism is uncommon? Prager gives several reasons:
Do you really think capitalism is synonymous with democracy and freedom?
Perfect example of a red herring. Both the thread and video are about why anti-nazi & anti-communist coverage differ so. Nothing to do with capitalism at all.
If you think Nazism has nothing to do with Capitalism, you are sadly mistaken.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Strive » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:35 pm

communism and nazism are both nasty ideologies, should always be condemned. let us keep it center left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics

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