Who is America ?

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Dan74
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Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 pm

The #1 thing that needs changing, IMO, is people's minds. Awareness of the system, how it is, warts-n-all, and a desire to change. Otherwise nothing is going to budge of course.

Down here, in this 'shit hole' of a country called Switzerland (thanks Amanita), we have the closest thing to a direct democracy - a citizen can initiate a referendum, but collecting enough signatures and then get funding to promote the campaign. A great deal of decisions and changes need to be voted on by the citizens in order to be implemented. A lot of power to the voter, eh? But do people really take advantage of it? For instance, the minimum guaranteed income failed a few years ago with just over a third of the voters supporting it.


Raising awareness is paramount. Otherwise even in the presence of new rights and liberties, we will just continue with the business as usual.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:20 am

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 pm

Down here, in this 'shit hole' of a country called Switzerland (thanks Amanita), we have the closest thing to a direct democracy
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:20 am
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.
It does not scale in nation states. Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly. It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.

Before "skype conferencing" was available (during the Spanish Civil War, or the Makhnoist liberation of the Ukraine, for example) a community could send a representative to a confederate meeting, but the delegate was not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the community.

But I have to agree with Dan that for a system like this to really work, the citizens have to be aware and willing to cooperate. This (inherent quality to cooperate) is something that requires education/training/encouragement. Just like the (inherent) tendency towards individualism has to be trained and habituated.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:02 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:20 am
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.
It does not scale in nation states. Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly. It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.

Before "skype conferencing" was available (during the Spanish Civil War, or the Makhnoist liberation of the Ukraine, for example) a community could send a representative to a confederate meeting, but the delegate was not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the community.

But I have to agree with Dan that for a system like this to really work, the citizens have to be aware and willing to cooperate. This (inherent quality to cooperate) is something that requires education/training/encouragement. Just like the (inherent) tendency towards individualism has to be trained and habituated.
For Democracy of any legitimate kind to work, the citizenry needs to be literate, educated, interested, and self-informed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:02 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:20 am
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.
It does not scale in nation states. Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly. It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:02 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:20 am
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.
It does not scale in nation states. Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly. It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Stop being practical.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Location: Greece

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 pm
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.
And that is one of the major sources of our current problems (globally).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
Posts: 28542
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:26 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 pm
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.
And that is one of the major sources of our current problems (globally).
Not much is going to change, I am afraid. It is a situation we are stuck with for the foreseeable future. The only alternative is to create communities whose decision making operates outside state structures, but parallel with them, in such a way that latter does not see the former as threats.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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