American Circumcision

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Tiago Simões
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:27 am
From a medical point of view, there is no compelling reason for circumcision. The rest of the world does just fine without it.

IMO, this procedure has been co-opted by the medical profession as a money maker, in the same way it has happened with the perfectly normal process of childbirth. And to perform an irreversible and disfiguring procedure without consent is abominable, no different than FGM.
I'm in Canada. A gomco clamp costs 12$. There is no money in it. It takes 2 minutes and some of the clamps in the birth unit are over 40 years old. It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
Europe and most of asian as done very well without it. The only reason americans started doing it was to reduce masturbation, which is a ridiculous reason.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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KathyLauren
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by KathyLauren » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:11 am
I am appalled that someone who (in most jurisdictions) is legally assumed to be not competent to buy and consume alcohol or marijuana, sign contracts, or have sex should be considered able to take metabolism-altering chemicals because they are emotionally uncomfortable. The fact that "mainstream" professionals even consider it is a sign of societal decadence, and criminally negligent parenting.
So you would be opposed to prescribing antidepressants to children who need then, then?

What would be criminally negligent parenting would be to forbid their children to transition, thereby prompting them to attempt suicide. Suicide attempt rates for trans minors who are not allowed to transition are over 50%. For kids who are allowed to transition, they are no higher than the mainstream population.
rory wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:16 pm
Hormone blockers are dangerous and should not be given to children at all. Lupron is dangerous with bad side effects! Please read this link to transgender trend:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers/
Transgendertrend.com is, by their own admission, an ideologically-based anti-trangender group. Being ideologically-driven, their approach to information is inherently anti-scientific. I would not believe anything that they have to say on the subject for that reason.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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justsit
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by justsit » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:27 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I'm in Canada. A gomco clamp costs 12$. There is no money in it. It takes 2 minutes and some of the clamps in the birth unit are over 40 years old. It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
The cost of the procedure in the US is $200-400. It is not without potential complications; "Acute complications can include bleeding (0.8-1.8/1,000), infection (6/10,000), and injury to the penis (4/10,000). Late complications can include incomplete circumcision, excessive skin removal, adhesions, meatal stenosis, phimosis, inclusion cysts." And "Circumcision also prevents penile cancer, but this is a rare disease (0.6/100,000), and the number needed to treat to prevent one case is approximately 300,000. In addition, about 1/3 of penile cancers are caused by human papilloma virus and may be prevented by HPV vaccine."
https://www.aafp.org/about/policies/all ... ision.html

Some do find the procedure disfiguring.

It may not be a big deal to you, but maybe not everyone looks at it the same way. How about letting the person decide for themself?

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Nemo
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Nemo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:03 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:27 pm
Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I'm in Canada. A gomco clamp costs 12$. There is no money in it. It takes 2 minutes and some of the clamps in the birth unit are over 40 years old. It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
The cost of the procedure in the US is $200-400. It is not without potential complications; "Acute complications can include bleeding (0.8-1.8/1,000), infection (6/10,000), and injury to the penis (4/10,000). Late complications can include incomplete circumcision, excessive skin removal, adhesions, meatal stenosis, phimosis, inclusion cysts." And "Circumcision also prevents penile cancer, but this is a rare disease (0.6/100,000), and the number needed to treat to prevent one case is approximately 300,000. In addition, about 1/3 of penile cancers are caused by human papilloma virus and may be prevented by HPV vaccine."
https://www.aafp.org/about/policies/all ... ision.html

Some do find the procedure disfiguring.

It may not be a big deal to you, but maybe not everyone looks at it the same way. How about letting the person decide for themself?
Like tonsilectomies it has been going in and out of fashion for over 2000 years. I don't really waste much time on it. I don't think it's worth a strong opinion either way.

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Quay
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Quay » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:17 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm
Circumcision, like all other kinds of unnecessary interventions hurting the natural, healthy corporal integrity of a person without his consent
is abuse and arbitrary torture
You're going to have a very hard time getting more than three people to agree upon the definition of an "unnecessary intervention" much less what is the "natural, healthy corporal integrity of a person." It all may be clear to you but not so much everyone else.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

tingdzin
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by tingdzin » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
So you would be opposed to prescribing antidepressants to children who need then, then?
The idea that children "need" anitdepressants is aother example of parental negligence (except perhaps in very severe cases which may be organically rooted), and another example of the culture of "two in the mouth and your problems are over", an approach heavily supported by the pharmaceutical lobby. If a child is depressed, parents have the responsibility to look for all possible environmental causes, including their own behavior, and attempt to deal with them, rather than using drugs as a first resort, which is all too common.
KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
What would be criminally negligent parenting would be to forbid their children to transition, thereby prompting them to attempt suicide. Suicide attempt rates for trans minors who are not allowed to transition are over 50%.
Bogus statistics put out by people with a vested interest, in all probability. Most adolescents have severe identity crises of one sort or another, and they are often sexually-based, but somehow people mostly got hrough them without drugs before "trans-ing" became trendy.

Really, people have the perfect right, as adults, to make any decisions they like regarding their own sexuality, but it is bad karma to lay one's trips, of whatever sort, on children.

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KathyLauren
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by KathyLauren » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:59 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 am
it is bad karma to lay one's trips, of whatever sort, on children.
Which is exactly why telling young trans kids that they cannot transition is wrong.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:14 am

Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
I assume that your belief that it is not a big deal either way leads you to accept the incorrect ideas that circumcision reduces STDs and penile cancer, and that it is not potentially physcially and psychologically damaging.
As for aesthetics, ...that's not a really a great reason for an unnecessary operation.

If you feel like you are not just accepting false statements about theoretical health benefits, and lack of being a big deal, I would be suggest you watch the movie and see if you still believe those things to be true (it's free if you have netflix, ...might be available in other places on the interwebs as well).

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Nemo
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Nemo » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:14 pm

climb-up wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:14 am
Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
I assume that your belief that it is not a big deal either way leads you to accept the incorrect ideas that circumcision reduces STDs and penile cancer, and that it is not potentially physcially and psychologically damaging.
As for aesthetics, ...that's not a really a great reason for an unnecessary operation.

If you feel like you are not just accepting false statements about theoretical health benefits, and lack of being a big deal, I would be suggest you watch the movie and see if you still believe those things to be true (it's free if you have netflix, ...might be available in other places on the interwebs as well).
I was an Army medic. Also known as a pecker checker. We have extensive training and practical experience on transmission rates and the risk factors associated with contracting STDs. You are woefully uninformed. Please educate yourself. And no, I don't consider Netflix a reliable source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036761/

Miroku
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Miroku » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:38 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:14 pm
climb-up wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:14 am
Nemo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm
It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.
I assume that your belief that it is not a big deal either way leads you to accept the incorrect ideas that circumcision reduces STDs and penile cancer, and that it is not potentially physcially and psychologically damaging.
As for aesthetics, ...that's not a really a great reason for an unnecessary operation.

If you feel like you are not just accepting false statements about theoretical health benefits, and lack of being a big deal, I would be suggest you watch the movie and see if you still believe those things to be true (it's free if you have netflix, ...might be available in other places on the interwebs as well).
I was an Army medic. Also known as a pecker checker. We have extensive training and practical experience on transmission rates and the risk factors associated with contracting STDs. You are woefully uninformed. Please educate yourself. And no, I don't consider Netflix a reliable source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036761/
:good:

I underwent the procedure few years back. From my (s)experience there is no difference really. Due to my condition before things are even better actually. Is it a stupid practice based even on even more stupid believe? Yes. Is it such a horrible thing you guys make it in this forum? No. It really does no harm.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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justsit
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by justsit » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:06 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:38 pm
I underwent the procedure few years back. From my (s)experience there is no difference really. Due to my condition before things are even better actually. Is it a stupid practice based even on even more stupid believe? Yes. Is it such a horrible thing you guys make it in this forum? No. It really does no harm.
You had the procedure, due to a condition and by your own choice. All well and good.

Regardless of whether the procedure is considered stupid or wrong or not, my point is that it should be a conscious choice made by the person having it, not the parents of the infant who cannot give consent.

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Nemo
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Nemo » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:10 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:38 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:14 pm
climb-up wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:14 am


I assume that your belief that it is not a big deal either way leads you to accept the incorrect ideas that circumcision reduces STDs and penile cancer, and that it is not potentially physcially and psychologically damaging.
As for aesthetics, ...that's not a really a great reason for an unnecessary operation.

If you feel like you are not just accepting false statements about theoretical health benefits, and lack of being a big deal, I would be suggest you watch the movie and see if you still believe those things to be true (it's free if you have netflix, ...might be available in other places on the interwebs as well).
I was an Army medic. Also known as a pecker checker. We have extensive training and practical experience on transmission rates and the risk factors associated with contracting STDs. You are woefully uninformed. Please educate yourself. And no, I don't consider Netflix a reliable source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036761/
:good:

I underwent the procedure few years back. From my (s)experience there is no difference really. Due to my condition before things are even better actually. Is it a stupid practice based even on even more stupid believe? Yes. Is it such a horrible thing you guys make it in this forum? No. It really does no harm.
In informal surveys in the army among what I would consider experts ;) most prefer circumcised to uncircumcised for cleanliness and aesthetics. Compared to a boob job it's a very minor procedure. It's not really a big deal either way though.

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:50 pm

Nemo wrote: I was an Army medic. Also known as a pecker checker. We have extensive training and practical experience on transmission rates and the risk factors associated with contracting STDs. You are woefully uninformed. Please educate yourself. And no, I don't consider Netflix a reliable source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036761/
Your saying that Netflix is not a reliable source, and therefore presumably saying you won’t watch it, means that you won’t be addressing the topics covered in the field by both medical professionals and people with personal experience.

Your experience as a “pecker checker” is clearly relevant, but doesn’t trump the experience of experts in the field (There are experts in the field from both sides of the debate in the documentary). If you are not interested in hearing those views and addressing them, then there isn’t really a point in discussing anything.

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Nemo
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Nemo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:09 am

climb-up wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:50 pm
Nemo wrote: I was an Army medic. Also known as a pecker checker. We have extensive training and practical experience on transmission rates and the risk factors associated with contracting STDs. You are woefully uninformed. Please educate yourself. And no, I don't consider Netflix a reliable source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036761/
Your saying that Netflix is not a reliable source, and therefore presumably saying you won’t watch it, means that you won’t be addressing the topics covered in the field by both medical professionals and people with personal experience.

Your experience as a “pecker checker” is clearly relevant, but doesn’t trump the experience of experts in the field (There are experts in the field from both sides of the debate in the documentary). If you are not interested in hearing those views and addressing them, then there isn’t really a point in discussing anything.
The director Marotta sounds like a kook. I'll stick to peer reviewed medical journals and uhhh, first hand experience.
http://www.towleroad.com/2018/12/american-circumcision/

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rory
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by rory » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:46 am

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
So you would be opposed to prescribing antidepressants to children who need then, then?
The idea that children "need" anitdepressants is aother example of parental negligence (except perhaps in very severe cases which may be organically rooted), and another example of the culture of "two in the mouth and your problems are over", an approach heavily supported by the pharmaceutical lobby. If a child is depressed, parents have the responsibility to look for all possible environmental causes, including their own behavior, and attempt to deal with them, rather than using drugs as a first resort, which is all too common.
KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm
What would be criminally negligent parenting would be to forbid their children to transition, thereby prompting them to attempt suicide. Suicide attempt rates for trans minors who are not allowed to transition are over 50%.
Bogus statistics put out by people with a vested interest, in all probability. Most adolescents have severe identity crises of one sort or another, and they are often sexually-based, but somehow people mostly got hrough them without drugs before "trans-ing" became trendy.

Really, people have the perfect right, as adults, to make any decisions they like regarding their own sexuality, but it is bad karma to lay one's trips, of whatever sort, on children.
It's simple child abuse to allow or encourage a minor to use puberty blockers to prevent a natural process (adolescence). Jazz Jennings who was given puberty blockers as a youth now has a micro penis and NO SEXUAL FUNCTION and cannot orgasm.
On top of this, his brain has stopped developing (brains grow until 25 years). He is sterile and can never have children. What kind of life is this? NO sex life, no children, and no fully developed sexual organs + a lifetime on drugs without studies on long term side effects.
80% of trans kids when left alone turn out to reconcile with their bodies and come out as gay. For the other 10% let them grow into adults with full sexual function and brains and then they can decide what to do with their lives.
Let's also be real: males cannot turn into females nor can females turn into males. Encouraging children and adolescents in this fantasy is sickening. In 10 years there will be a crop of young people whose bodies are mutilated and wrecked by these powerful drugs. Let the gender nonconforming wear the clothes they like and be as feminine/masculine as they desire in their own healthy bodies!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:35 am

Nemo wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:09 am

The director Marotta sounds like a kook. I'll stick to peer reviewed medical journals and uhhh, first hand experience.
http://www.towleroad.com/2018/12/american-circumcision/
First hand experience of what, having both been and not been circumcised as an infant?

Not all of the director’s views seem scientifically validated, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t good information. The article above contains a link to an article from The Lancet:
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

I think the length of time it took western medical science to recognize that infants even feel pain is good enough reason to be cautious of other dismissals:
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/24/scie ... d4Sy-sz8lU

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