One truth?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
haha
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Re: One truth?

Post by haha » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:52 pm

Actually, there is no Mountain. Nor the top of the mountain. :stirthepot:


You can check this out.
Krishnamurti on Awareness and the Observer

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm

'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:02 pm

I'd rather get to the other shore, or to the top of the mountain, than to be down here speculating whether or not all boats or roads lead to the same place. You wont know that until you get there. It is pointless to speculate while in ignorance. Its like walking up to every boat you see and asking, "will this get me to the other side?". I am not aware of anyone; Hindu, Buddhist, or otherwise, attaining awakening through mere conceptual speculation of the trajectory of the myrads of paths. Practice is better.

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:02 pm
I'd rather get to the other shore, or to the top of the mountain, than to be down here speculating whether or not all boats or roads lead to the same place. ...
But that attitude is based on faith and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with, not necessarily merely conceptually but in terms of capacity. So from his perspective these speculations make sense.

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Rick
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am
... and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with,
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Recovering Catholic Syndrome
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:59 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:02 pm
I'd rather get to the other shore, or to the top of the mountain, than to be down here speculating whether or not all boats or roads lead to the same place. ...
But that attitude is based on faith and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with, not necessarily merely conceptually but in terms of capacity. So from his perspective these speculations make sense.
And these speculations will lead where? They have only two places to lead oneself too: confusion or faith. If the op has confidence that there are awakened beings, why not walk their path? Doubt can be skillful, and it can be very dangerous. Doubt can make one believe that they are being careful and it can also be an excuse to remain stagnant. One will certainly know, at the latest, at the time of death which one it actually was.

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am
... and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with,
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Recovering Catholic Syndrome
No culpa! There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates. Pure faith may only arise in the sphere of emptiness of self.

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:06 pm

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:59 pm
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:02 pm
I'd rather get to the other shore, or to the top of the mountain, than to be down here speculating whether or not all boats or roads lead to the same place. ...
But that attitude is based on faith and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with, not necessarily merely conceptually but in terms of capacity. So from his perspective these speculations make sense.
And these speculations will lead where? They have only two places to lead oneself too: confusion or faith.
Depends, an individual may have faith in what you conceive as confusion. Such a faith may be quite satisfying for a period of time.
Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:59 pm
If the op has confidence that there are awakened beings, why not walk their path?
That's not the issue here. He actually follows the view of Vedanta and says he practices accordingly. What would make him feel more comfortable is the affirmation that all paths have the same goal - just to have the assurance that he doesn't miss the essence when he practices Vedanta which obviously does resonate with him more than buddhism does.

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:59 pm
Doubt can be skillful, and it can be very dangerous. Doubt can make one believe that they are being careful and it can also be an excuse to remain stagnant. One will certainly know, at the latest, at the time of death which one it actually was.
This of course is also a matter of faith.

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: One truth?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm
Recovering Catholic Syndrome
Ditto. It took a long time, with me. I still have sympathy with the idea of higher power. But the benefits I have gained from my practice are hard to deny. Consistent practice really does lead to payoffs.

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Rick
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm
No culpa! There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates.
Level mismatch! When I culpa myself I am <consciously> speaking from the conventional level where things of all ilk are held to exist, including self's. You otoh are speaking from the ultimate level, where 'self' is held to be no more than an aggregation of aggregates kind of thing.

Level mismatch/conflation is a HUGE source of confusion in dharma discussions. Adding to the problem is that different schools of Buddhism define conventional and especially ultimate truth in nontrivially different ways.

Oi!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:24 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:18 pm
Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm
Recovering Catholic Syndrome
Ditto. It took a long time, with me. I still have sympathy with the idea of higher power.
Me too, I'm discovering. I didn't think I did until recently, when I realized that one of the things that attracts me to Advaita Vedanta is my eons-old attraction <and, to some extent, repulsion> to the notion of a higher power ... and you can't get much higher than brahman!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:28 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm
No culpa! There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates.
Level mismatch! When I culpa myself I am <consciously> speaking from the conventional level where things of all ilk are held to exist, including self's. You otoh are speaking from the ultimate level, where 'self' is held to be no more than an aggregation of aggregates kind of thing.

Level mismatch/conflation is a HUGE source of confusion in dharma discussions. Adding to the problem is that different schools of Buddhism define conventional and especially ultimate truth in nontrivially different ways.

Oi!
'Mea culpa' is catholic view. Catholic view does not know two truths. So in Catholic view there is plenty of affirmations in the context of faith. All these affirmations are actually ultimate affirmations since they do not know two truths. Therefore catholic faith is repressive.

When I say 'There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates' then this is conventional level! Why? Because ultimate level is ineffable.

A huge source of confusion in dharma discussions is that people misconceive the expression 'ultimate' as not being conventional. The two truths view is just convention.
Last edited by stevie on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: One truth?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:29 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:24 pm
Me too, I'm discovering. I didn't think I did until recently, when I realized that one of the things that attracts me to Advaita Vedanta is my eons-old attraction <and, to some extent, repulsion> to the notion of a higher power ... and you can't get much higher than brahman!
Recently the more I practice the more confident I am there is some higher power. It just doesn't look anything like what we can comprehend. And it may be infinite but there are infinities of different sizes. A zillion years may be as close to infinity for a human being as to make no difference. But it's still just a blink of an eye, from another perspective. Habitual practice is 99% of what matters, though.

stevie
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Re: One truth?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:35 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm
stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am
... and faith is a phenomenon the thread starter confirmed elsewhere to have an issue with,
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Recovering Catholic Syndrome
No culpa! Following buddhist convention 'There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates. Pure faith may only arise in the sphere of emptiness of self.'

How can you understand the meaning of these words? Not through reading but through experientially investigating into what is conventionally called 'emptiness of self'.

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Matt J
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Re: One truth?

Post by Matt J » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:23 pm

A priest once set out the spiritual life as being like a marriage. I think it is somewhat of a helpful analogy, because unlike a mountain, a marriage can flourish or wither depending on the time and attention it receives. I think the analogy is apt. When you get married, you don't know what it is going to be like at the end. You get something of a preview, but people change and marriage is hard. So is long-term spiritual cultivation. I think it makes sense to "date" other spiritual traditions before committing. However, it does seem that in order for spiritual practice to grow, it needs a substantial investment in time and energy, and a commitment.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:55 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:09 am

Depends, an individual may have faith in what you conceive as confusion. Such a faith may be quite satisfying for a period of time.
Most do have faith in something that arises from confusion. Which is why we are all in the predicament of suffering. Many things are quite satisfying for some time. However, most of these things do not end with liberation.

That's not the issue here. He actually follows the view of Vedanta and says he practices accordingly. What would make him feel more comfortable is the affirmation that all paths have the same goal - just to have the assurance that he doesn't miss the essence when he practices Vedanta which obviously does resonate with him more than buddhism does.
I, too, used to be obsessed with trying to connect all paths to the same goal, until i found conviction in myself that all paths do not lead to the same goal. Some leads to heavenly realms, some lead to formless realms, etc. I know all of that is based on faith too! But there are many teachers from many traditions who knew not all paths have the same result. Ramanujas Vaishnava Dharma will not lead to Prajnaparamita, neither will Chaitanya Mahaprabhus. Advaita Vedanta will not, or at least shouldnt in its highest aspect of realization (Ajati Vada, Drishti Srishti Vada), lead to a realm of form. And worship of Jesus wont lead to becoming an Arhat.
This of course is also a matter of faith.
True, until it isnt.


P.s. i dont want to come off as some party pooper. I enjoy this conversation and thank you for noticing my two cents!

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Grigoris
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Re: One truth?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:22 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm
Level mismatch! When I culpa myself I am <consciously> speaking from the conventional level where things of all ilk are held to exist, including self's.
Actually they are not held to exist, as such. They are held to temporarily arise on the basis of causes and conditions.

I know, it is a subtle difference, but it is an important one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Rick
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:22 pm
Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm
Level mismatch! When I culpa myself I am <consciously> speaking from the conventional level where things of all ilk are held to exist, including self's.
Actually they are not held to exist, as such. They are held to temporarily arise on the basis of causes and conditions.

I know, it is a subtle difference, but it is an important one.
I've read HHtDL say that <paraphrasing>: Things exist, just not how we think they exist.

I know that this might be a Gelugpa view, to assert that things do in fact exist. But maybe what he meant is pretty much what you said? Whatcha think?

I just found the passage:

“There is no question that persons and things exist; the question is how, or in what manner, they exist.”
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:07 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:22 pm
Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm
Level mismatch! When I culpa myself I am <consciously> speaking from the conventional level where things of all ilk are held to exist, including self's.
Actually they are not held to exist, as such. They are held to temporarily arise on the basis of causes and conditions.

I know, it is a subtle difference, but it is an important one.
I've read HHtDL say that <paraphrasing>: Things exist, just not how we think they exist.

I know that this might be a Gelugpa view, to assert that things do in fact exist. But maybe what he meant is pretty much what you said? Whatcha think?

I just found the passage:

“There is no question that persons and things exist; the question is how, or in what manner, they exist.”
I know this question was to Grigoris, but my interpretation of what HHDL is saying is that: phenomena appear, however they are dependantly originated, thus without essence, and beyond elaboration. Phenomena appear, however our minds misapprehend how these things arise and appear. I highly doubt HHDL would dissagree with Nagarjuna and other Madhyamikas that all phenomena are beyond elaboration (existence, non-existence, both, neither).

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Rick
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Re: One truth?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:10 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:28 pm
When I say 'There is no substantially existent self as user/ master of the aggregates' then this is conventional level! Why? Because ultimate level is ineffable.
I'm using ultimate truth to mean 'seeing the conventional as simply conventional.' (Merci, Astus.) There is nothing ineffable about this take of ultimate truth. Are you talking about something else when you say 'ultimate level?'
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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