Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

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Tlalok
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Tlalok » Wed May 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:59 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 pm
Insane. Criminalizing abortion plus banning most birth control methods? Are you sure? That's insane.
It’s insane, describes the leanings of most of the Right To Life movement in the US, and explains why the parameters of the entire debate are screwy.
Its not actually about protecting the unborn, it never was. Its about punishing women for having sex, it always has been. If you look at it in this way, its all very, very logical. Its why they want to ban abortion and restrict birth control, as well as preventing access to the HPV vaccine (HPV increases the risk of cervical cancer), while simultaneously gutting social support for single mothers.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 pm

Things are getting much worse than I thought over there...
What's their rationale behind that stupidity?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 15, 2019 5:31 pm

Tlalok wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:59 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 pm
Insane. Criminalizing abortion plus banning most birth control methods? Are you sure? That's insane.
It’s insane, describes the leanings of most of the Right To Life movement in the US, and explains why the parameters of the entire debate are screwy.
Its not actually about protecting the unborn, it never was. Its about punishing women for having sex, it always has been. If you look at it in this way, its all very, very logical. Its why they want to ban abortion and restrict birth control, as well as preventing access to the HPV vaccine (HPV increases the risk of cervical cancer), while simultaneously gutting social support for single mothers.
Yep. This is why despite being personally opposed to abortion, i''d have a hard time supporting the pro-life agenda here in any way. An actual "pro-life" agenda would look like all the good parts of planned parenthood, combined with much stronger social supports (housing, drug treatment, etc.) and sex education, including much more money and resources allocated towards those things. -That- might actually reduce abortions.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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SunWuKong
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by SunWuKong » Wed May 15, 2019 6:01 pm

Criminalization isn't the way forward. Victimizing women isn't either. If all the money spent on these two agendas (criminalization, victimization) had been used for social services, the problem would have far less impact. It's a classic case of how fundamentalist activism up to and including terrorism actually makes the problems worse. It is also an example of how "Christians" disobey Christ's commandments, but let's not get into that here.

:shock:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Tlalok
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Tlalok » Wed May 15, 2019 6:13 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 pm
Things are getting much worse than I thought over there...
What's their rationale behind that stupidity?
Its not stupid if you hate women having agency over their bodies and want to punish them for having sex (either in or outside marriage, it doesn't matter).

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Nemo
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nemo » Wed May 15, 2019 6:26 pm

Teen pregnancy rates have been dropping since the 1950s. Sexual education is very important as is access to birth control.
In some jurisdictions up to 70% of incarcerated inmates were in foster care at some time in their youth. There is also a huge decrease in crime that correlates with the date of legalized abortion in a state plus 18 years. If you actually want to stop abortion adopt an unwanted kid or get a vasectomy. But mostly this is about telling women what to do so I don't expect those things to happen. Unwanted kids have a strong tendency to become monsters we all have to deal with later. Telling other people what they can do with their bodies is simply making things worse.

The most common cause for abortion is a lack of resources. Kids are frickin expensive in the West. They are a luxury item now. I'm sure I've spent more than a Mercedes S Class and a cottage to boot on mine already.

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Queequeg
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 15, 2019 6:39 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:31 pm
Yep. This is why despite being personally opposed to abortion, i''d have a hard time supporting the pro-life agenda here in any way. An actual "pro-life" agenda would look like all the good parts of planned parenthood, combined with much stronger social supports (housing, drug treatment, etc.) and sex education, including much more money and resources allocated towards those things. -That- might actually reduce abortions.
Good post. That's basically my position, too.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

boda
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by boda » Wed May 15, 2019 6:58 pm

Opposed to abortion but pro-choice. Is there actually anyone pro-abortion and pro-choice, which I suppose would mean that they like or have no bad feeling about having an abortion?

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Nemo
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nemo » Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm

Since this is a testosterone fest here is an article for some balance.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E

P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.

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justsit
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by justsit » Wed May 15, 2019 8:11 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E

P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.
Great article, thanks for the link.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 9:12 pm

Yeah, let's throw a little more sexism into the mixture, as if it hasn't enough already.That will surely help. :roll:

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Queequeg
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 15, 2019 9:16 pm

Alabama just passed a law that basically makes abortion illegal.

Anti-abortion advocates think they have the votes on the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade and passed the law to put the question to them.

As I explained in the Science and Religion thread, abortion hinges on personhood and when that begins. Roe v Wade set the limit at the viability of the fetus if removed from the womb.

If I were to speculate, John Roberts, the Chief Justice, will do everything he can to maintain the status quo, including voting with the remaining liberals on the court. Its too soon to tell, but Kavanaugh might prove to be a pragmatist; indications are that he's not dogmatically conservative in the way many conservatives were hoping. That could mean a 5-4 balance in favor of upholding Roe v. Wade.

The alternative will be a major upheaval.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Yavana
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Yavana » Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.
I plead close proximity to a third-world country and culture...

boda
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by boda » Wed May 15, 2019 9:46 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
Since this is a testosterone fest here is an article for some balance.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E

P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.
To reduce or eliminate abortions, stop attempting to control women’s bodies and sexuality. Because unwanted pregnancies are caused by men.
In other words, she's pro-choice. Moving on...

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Yavana
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Yavana » Wed May 15, 2019 10:42 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
Since this is a testosterone fest here is an article for some balance.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E

P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:12 pm
Yeah, let's throw a little more sexism into the mixture, as if it hasn't enough already.That will surely help. :roll:
This article is interesting:
https://reason.com/2019/05/10/broader-i ... my-choice/

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Yavana wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:42 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 pm
Since this is a testosterone fest here is an article for some balance.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies.https://medium.com/s/can-we-talk/men-ca ... ocJAINWD9E

P.S some of you guys sound like sexist assholes trapped in a past century. Grow up.
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:12 pm
Yeah, let's throw a little more sexism into the mixture, as if it hasn't enough already.That will surely help. :roll:
This article is interesting:
https://reason.com/2019/05/10/broader-i ... my-choice/
That article is ridiculous, like the product of an 18 year old who just read Ayn Rand for the first time. It's amazing to me that it is the supposed product of seasoned legal minds. As if the slogan "my body my choice" must mean absolutely the same thing in all situation. It's like something written by an angsty libertarian teen.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Yavana
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Yavana » Wed May 15, 2019 10:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:53 pm
That article is ridiculous, like the product of an 18 year old who just read Ayn Rand for the first time. As if the slogan "my body my choice" must mean absolutely the same thing in all situation. It's like something written by an angsty libertarian teen.
Yeah and they have a whole website dedicated to that. Makes you think.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 15, 2019 10:56 pm

Yavana wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:53 pm
That article is ridiculous, like the product of an 18 year old who just read Ayn Rand for the first time. As if the slogan "my body my choice" must mean absolutely the same thing in all situation. It's like something written by an angsty libertarian teen.
Yeah and they have a whole website dedicated to that. Makes you think.
I'm familiar with Reason. Ironic that the journal is named that in this case. Occasionally I even agree with Libertarians, hell more than occasionally on some issues. Doesn't change the ludicrousness or deficient logic of that article. "Well if you believe this is true in one situation it must be true everywhere all the time"-subtext of- "because liberals support abortion rights they must be hypocrites and aren't libertarian"...please, grow up...
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 11:37 pm

Yes. Unfortunately there's so much stupidity surrounding this issue...
Criminalizing abortion solves nothing. It only creates a very ugly black market.
Letting abortion become a substitute for birth control is also completely imoral.
There's a middle ground, a sane middle ground.
Solely blaming men or women is also quite stupid... but that's more "circus" than anything else...

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Nemo
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nemo » Thu May 16, 2019 12:20 am

http://reductress.com/post/senator-says ... ith-a-gun/
Equating both sides is very liberal Dechen. You can pretend the elephant in the room is not there if you wish.

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