smcj wrote:Wiki let me down. The only definition I found there was:
Tantra is defined as an inner realization that functions to prevent ordinary appearances and conceptions and to accomplish the four complete purities of a Buddha (environment, body, enjoyments and deeds)
That's lame, IMO.Dzogchen is not a part of Tantra, but an independent system with its own proper view.
Atiyoga is tantra, which includes tantric Dzogchen. I'm not into Dzogchen, but the kind that isn't Atiyoga I think of as Sutrayana. Same for Mahamudra outside of tantra. Others may disagree.
Wikipedia is ok, but the question is how_ ... by tricking the mind into following sutra instead of karma
Sutra Tantra and Dzogchen are all three different systems. Sutra is the way of renunciation, Tantra of transformation (by transforming the workings of mind) and Dzogchen of direct, spontaneous liberation.