Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

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Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

ConradTree wrote: The debate is how much of Dzogchen is Indian Buddhist vs Tibetan Buddhist.
My guess, about 5% Indian, 95% Tibetan.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherlock wrote:According to that Germano article, the Upanishad channel involved a connection from the heart to the head, it wasn't the fully elaborated system that appears in the yoginitantras. There was no fully system of channels and cakras during the initial transmission of tantra to Tibet in the 8th-9th century so it was fully elaborated only in between then and around 1000CE.
.

I just wanted to add, I have looked at all the Dzogchen literature extant that could conceivably be pre- 1000, and none of it has any trace of concern or interest in anything remotely resembling the nāḍī, vāyu and bindu systems present in Hevajra, Kalacakra, and so on.

This only changes when we come to the man ngag sde tantras. For this as well as other reasons, I place the composition of the bulk of the seventeen tantras no earlier than 1020-1030 with the sgra thal 'gyur, the mu tig phreng ba, the rig pa rang shar and rang grol as well as the bkra shis mdzes ldan being the last. The sgra thal 'gyur was almost certainly composed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuck, in my opinion.
Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

But I thought you said before that Tibetans realized they were not physical when they dissected bodies and dddn't find any of those channels. ChNN says something similar in that visualizing channels and cakras are just ways to focus your prana and they don't really correspond to the physical level therefore the size is not really important.
Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:According to that Germano article, the Upanishad channel involved a connection from the heart to the head, it wasn't the fully elaborated system that appears in the yoginitantras. There was no fully system of channels and cakras during the initial transmission of tantra to Tibet in the 8th-9th century so it was fully elaborated only in between then and around 1000CE.
.

I just wanted to add, I have looked at all the Dzogchen literature extant that could conceivably be pre- 1000, and none of it has any trace of concern or interest in anything remotely resembling the nāḍī, vāyu and bindu systems present in Hevajra, Kalacakra, and so on.

This only changes when we come to the man ngag sde tantras. For this as well as other reasons, I place the composition of the bulk of the seventeen tantras no earlier than 1020-1030 with the sgra thal 'gyur, the mu tig phreng ba, the rig pa rang shar and rang grol as well as the bkra shis mdzes ldan being the last. The sgra thal 'gyur was almost certainly composed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuck, in my opinion.
What about Bon Dzogchen?
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherlock wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:According to that Germano article, the Upanishad channel involved a connection from the heart to the head, it wasn't the fully elaborated system that appears in the yoginitantras. There was no fully system of channels and cakras during the initial transmission of tantra to Tibet in the 8th-9th century so it was fully elaborated only in between then and around 1000CE.
.

I just wanted to add, I have looked at all the Dzogchen literature extant that could conceivably be pre- 1000, and none of it has any trace of concern or interest in anything remotely resembling the nāḍī, vāyu and bindu systems present in Hevajra, Kalacakra, and so on.

This only changes when we come to the man ngag sde tantras. For this as well as other reasons, I place the composition of the bulk of the seventeen tantras no earlier than 1020-1030 with the sgra thal 'gyur, the mu tig phreng ba, the rig pa rang shar and rang grol as well as the bkra shis mdzes ldan being the last. The sgra thal 'gyur was almost certainly composed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuck, in my opinion.
What about Bon Dzogchen?
It is all 11th century and later, like all bon texts.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherlock wrote:But I thought you said before that Tibetans realized they were not physical when they dissected bodies and dddn't find any of those channels.
No, I have never maintained that.

What I said was that the way the nāḍīs exist in the body does not correspond to how they are visualized, not that they do not physically exist. They do physically exist because their process of development during gestation is very precisely described in tantras such as Kālacakra, sGra thal 'gyur and so on.
Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

So the way in which they physically exist is just our blood and lymph channels, the nuscular system etc?

Or to put it another way the nadis etc are an expedient description of our blood and lymph channels etc to help us control certain aspects of their functioning?
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherlock wrote:So the way in which they physically exist is just our blood and lymph channels, the nuscular system etc?
Well, for example, in the system of the Vajra Bridge, Kunzang Dorje, a disciple of Dharmabodhi who lived in the later 12th century, describes the nāḍīs very clearly as follows:

"Since it is necessary to understand the critical point of nāḍīs and vāyu, though there are 80,000 nāḍīs in a single body, they are gathered into five in the organ of the heart [don snying]. Blood and vāyu exist in the heart nāḍī, the lalanā, which exists on the right. Lymph [chu ser] and vāyu exist in the lung nāḍī, the rasanā, which exists on the left. Vāyu and bindu exist in the kidney nāḍī, the avādhuti (kun 'dar ma), which exists in the middle. The liver nāḍī generates the pure essence of the sense organs, exists above, and illuminates [sense] consciousness. Since the spleen nāḍī is the lower end of the avadhuti, it produces bliss."

They are necessarily physical structures which contain physical things such as vāyu and bindu, blood and lymph, feces and urine etc. This is merely one example I can provide out of many.
Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

OK thanks. Actually given the recent scientific study about tummo in some nuns and how the main mechanism behind the raise in temperature is due to the forceful breathing while visualization mainly helps the practitioners maintain the forceful breathing for longer periods, this makes a lot of sense rather than a concept of some nonphysocal force. The idea of a nonphysical force is the one you had been railing against for some time?
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherlock wrote:OK thanks. Actually given the recent scientific study about tummo in some nuns and how the main mechanism behind the raise in temperature is due to the forceful breathing while visualization mainly helps the practitioners maintain the forceful breathing for longer periods, this makes a lot of sense rather than a concept of some nonphysocal force. The idea of a nonphysical force is the one you had been railing against for some time?
Well, it is not supported by our tradition. The so called "energy winds" are just vāyu, which is just the element of air. Of course, there are grosser and subtler kind of vāyu, but they all belong to the air element and are not different than the air element.
haha
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by haha »

"The statue will remain intact so long as no one removes the image of Mahakarunika. Should anyone remove this, this statue will instantly crumble to bits."

In this way, all who had heard the name of Virupa placed a Buddhist image on top of their Hindu images, for fear that Virupa might come and destroy them.

He placed a small votive stupa on top of the image and admitted all the Yoginis to the practice of Buddhadharma. (Goddess Chandika)
http://virupa.wz.cz/

These are the examples from the lineage biography or folk lore of Virupa. It means many hindu deities are converted to buddhist deities by putting a statuette on the head. If we can find that those images are converted in such folk lore, then there may be many possibilities of conversion of Saiva tantric texts. What do you say about this?
Malcolm wrote:
Some Hindu tantras have references to tantras orignating from Mahacina, which might be a reference to either China or an area to the Northeast.
Principally the Nilasarasvati tantras.
Yamala tanta has refered Risi Vashistha went to Mahacina. Does this Risi have any relationship with the lineage of Dzogchen-teachers from Oddiyana and India?
Malcolm wrote:
"Since it is necessary to understand the critical point of nāḍīs and vāyu, though there are 80,000 nāḍīs in a single body, they are gathered into five in the organ of the heart [don snying]. Blood and vāyu exist in the heart nāḍī, the lalanā, which exists on the right. Lymph [chu ser] and vāyu exist in the lung nāḍī, the rasanā, which exists on the left. Vāyu and bindu exist in the kidney nāḍī, the avādhuti (kun 'dar ma), which exists in the middle. The liver nāḍī generates the pure essence of the sense organs, exists above, and illuminates [sense] consciousness. Since the spleen nāḍī is the lower end of the avadhuti, it produces bliss."
Is it the synthesis of Taoist and Buddhist ideas about nadi and prana/chi?
Greg
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Greg »

Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote:What do you say about this?
What is there to say?
Malcolm wrote:
Yamala tanta has refered Risi Vashistha went to Mahacina. Does this Risi have any relationship with the lineage of Dzogchen-teachers from Oddiyana and India?
No, not at all.
Malcolm wrote:
Is it the synthesis of Taoist and Buddhist ideas about nadi and prana/chi?
No.
haha
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by haha »

Gerge, thanks for the link.
Discussion was interesting but that did not continue further.

There is nothing to say but the biography of Virupa also supports Sanderson's theory.

Malcolm wrote: "Since it is necessary to understand the critical point of nāḍīs and vāyu, though there are 80,000 nāḍīs in a single body, they are gathered into five in the organ of the heart [don snying]. Blood and vāyu exist in the heart nāḍī, the lalanā, which exists on the right. Lymph [chu ser] and vāyu exist in the lung nāḍī, the rasanā, which exists on the left. Vāyu and bindu exist in the kidney nāḍī, the avādhuti (kun 'dar ma), which exists in the middle. The liver nāḍī generates the pure essence of the sense organs, exists above, and illuminates [sense] consciousness. Since the spleen nāḍī is the lower end of the avadhuti, it produces bliss."
Analyzing
-There are five Yin organs (heart, lungs, kideny, liver, and spleen), which are probably Wu Xing/ Five Elements theory from Chinese origin.
-Then, they are associated with three major nadis (lalana, rasana and avadhuti), clarity and energy/bliss; it is the buddhist origin, especially from masters of Mahamudra.

We can see the adaptation clearly in above statement. However, there are differences in associating colours, channels, emotions, etc in Taoist and Buddhist methods.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote:Gerge, thanks for the link.
Discussion was interesting but that did not continue further.

There is nothing to say but the biography of Virupa also supports Sanderson's theory.
Virupa's bio does not support text conversion. His bio indicates that he went around India converting non-Buddhists through acts of magical terror.



Analyzing
-There are five Yin organs (heart, lungs, kideny, liver, and spleen), which are probably Wu Xing/ Five Elements theory from Chinese origin.
No, for example, there is a passage in the Aṣṭaṇgahridayam that gives these organs in this order:

Heart, lung, liver, gall bladder, spleen, kidney.
-Then, they are associated with three major nadis (lalana, rasana and avadhuti), clarity and energy/bliss; it is the buddhist origin, especially from masters of Mahamudra.
The names are from Buddhist tantra, but it is not certain whether the concepts of the three main nāḍīs are Hindu (ida, pingala or śusumna) or Buddhist in origin.

So, I don't really agree with you about "adaptation" in this instance. There is some evidence that the nāḍī system was borrowed by the Hindus from Buddhist tantra. But in fact at this point we simply don't know.
haha
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by haha »

Thanks for the clarification.

According to the tradition, the Cakrasamvara Tantra is a revealed text,originating in the teaching activity of the cosmic Buddha Mahavajradhara.It was revealed in the distant past, at a time when the Hindu deity Bhairava and his followers were allegedly causing problems in the world through their immoral behavior, namely, violence and wanton sexuality.According to the myth, Bhairava and his consort Kalaratri seized control of Mount Sumeru, and their retinue seized 24 other power places located throughout South Asia and the Himalayan region. In response to this,Mahavajradhara and his retinue manifested in the world in the Saiva guise.They then subdued the Hindu deities, and took control of these power places. They thus established the Cakrasamvara mandala on earth, and they continue to reside there, in occult forms, accessible to the faithful (Davidson 1991; Gray 2007, pp. 44–54)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12207954/Gray ... -and-Tibet

Such passage/myth does not support the textual conversion but provide the hypothesis for textual conversion. So do the bio of Yogeswora Virupa. It is natural that if one has power, s/he will utilize such power. It depends on what type of power one has got. Some ppl may have money, some magic, some language, some well read knowledge, some business, some art, etc.

The Aṣṭaṇgahridayam that gives these organs in this order: Heart, lung, liver, gall bladder, spleen, kidney. But quoted passage did not used yang organ (gall bladder). Then, there are five yin organs. Thus, it is related with Wu Xing theory. :tongue:

lalana, rasana and avadhuti
These three are purely buddhist in origin (name as well as meaning). Ida, Pingala and Susumna are purely non-buddhist (name as well as meaning). In buddhist context without Vipasyana one cannot work with avadhuti; especially in vajrayana it is directly related with sampannakrama(completion stage meditation). How can such thing derive from non-buddhist tradition?
Beside, Sakyamuni Buddha taught Sleeping lion's posture. This also indicates no need to borrow.
Clarity and bliss are definitely Buddhist.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote:
Such passage/myth does not support the textual conversion but provide the hypothesis for textual conversion. So do the bio of Yogeswora Virupa.
All it proves is that Buddhists and Hindus were in competition.
The Aṣṭaṇgahridayam that gives these organs in this order: Heart, lung, liver, gall bladder, spleen, kidney. But quoted passage did not used yang organ (gall bladder). Then, there are five yin organs. Thus, it is related with Wu Xing theory.
Not really. These five don snod, may ultimately have come from the arrangement the functional organs in Chinese medicine, but their place is so firmly established in Tibetan medicine by the 13th century when this text was written that any Chinese connection would have been long been obscured.
lalana, rasana and avadhuti
These three are purely buddhist in origin (name as well as meaning). Ida, Pingala and Susumna are purely non-buddhist (name as well as meaning).
Kalacakra uses Ida, Pingala and Susumna.
In buddhist context without Vipasyana one cannot work with avadhuti; especially in vajrayana it is directly related with sampannakrama(completion stage meditation). How can such thing derive from non-buddhist tradition?
Easily, as Sapan points out the two stages exist in Hinduism, the difference is in view.
ConradTree
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by ConradTree »

So who regularly goes to Hindu temple?

Not the weird cult ones of course.
Phenomniverse
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Phenomniverse »

There's a reference in the Tantraloka (I think) regarding the origins of the Kashmiri Shaivite lineage lying on the border of modern India and Tibet, in a region that I believe at that time would have been the kingdom of Zhang Zhung/Shang Shung. Which makes me wonder about potential (pre-historic?) dialogue between Bon and what is now known as Kashmiri Shaivism. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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Zhen Li
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Zhen Li »

ConradTree wrote:So who regularly goes to Hindu temple?

Not the weird cult ones of course.
Any Newar Buddhist, just as any Indian Buddhist before them. On the ground, the nice distinctions between religions that we can force on paper do not exist.
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