Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
I think the picture is complicated.
Meditative practices involving visualizing cosmic Buddhas appear in Mahayana around 300CE or so based on Chinese translations, which might be considered the beginning of what later was classified as "kriya" tantra. I think this was definitely a novel development within the period since one might argue that dharanis had precedents in Vedic practices. Still, is the application of them as a means of meditation or soteriology extant in Vedic sources rather than just using them for magical/ritual purposes? Anyway, we don't really know what was going on with the Hindus because texts within India itself in Indian languages are notoriously difficult to date; we can date Buddhists works mainly because they were translated into other languages.
On the other hand, Sanderson demonstrates even in some of the surviving kriya tantra texts in Chinese translated in Chinese there exists references to elements which were otherwise not extant in Buddhist tantra and more similar to Shaivite iconography (Tumburu cult, skullcups, human hair). He does note that this was something that separated it from the rest of the works that Amoghavajra translated.
Of course, here the problem might really be with him using the classification into kriya, carya and yoga tantra as a guideline for dating, which might be broadly useful in general as a guide to developments at each stage of tantra but difficult when it comes to specific texts.
Meditative practices involving visualizing cosmic Buddhas appear in Mahayana around 300CE or so based on Chinese translations, which might be considered the beginning of what later was classified as "kriya" tantra. I think this was definitely a novel development within the period since one might argue that dharanis had precedents in Vedic practices. Still, is the application of them as a means of meditation or soteriology extant in Vedic sources rather than just using them for magical/ritual purposes? Anyway, we don't really know what was going on with the Hindus because texts within India itself in Indian languages are notoriously difficult to date; we can date Buddhists works mainly because they were translated into other languages.
On the other hand, Sanderson demonstrates even in some of the surviving kriya tantra texts in Chinese translated in Chinese there exists references to elements which were otherwise not extant in Buddhist tantra and more similar to Shaivite iconography (Tumburu cult, skullcups, human hair). He does note that this was something that separated it from the rest of the works that Amoghavajra translated.
Of course, here the problem might really be with him using the classification into kriya, carya and yoga tantra as a guideline for dating, which might be broadly useful in general as a guide to developments at each stage of tantra but difficult when it comes to specific texts.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping BrahmaSherab Dorje wrote:Just don't tell the Thais that the Ramakien is Hindu and everything will be alright!smcj wrote:That's the kind of thing that drives Therarvadans crazy. Good thing we have two separate websites!Sakya Pandita is very clear virtually all the practices in Buddhist tantra have Shaiva, etc., counterparts.
(the general held view is that only monks can become Enlightenened...so this doesnt leave very much choices for the laity....many try for the Pure abodes still that is difficult...so most thais either seek to be born in tusita heaven with maitreya or be reborn in a brahman realm)
So Hindu dieties have a unique and permanent place in Theravadan Buddhism.
Mahayana uses the dieties in a lesser extent since we have Pure Lands.
I have started seeing a merging of traditions in Cambodhia and Buruma where some of my friends are stuanch Thervadans.....but instead of seeking to be reborn in heaven brahma realm.....they are seeking too be reborn in Mahayana Pure land.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
So how can we view Vaikunta as Buddhists?plwk wrote:I doubt the Vaishnavas & the Srimad Bhagavatam will agree with you about Vaikunta...Even in Hinduism it is said that vishnu loka, shiva loka, brahma loka are all destroyed during mahapralaya. So yes they are within samsara.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
See your own answer in bold...So how can we view Vaikunta as Buddhists?
Nighthawk wrote:Even in Hinduism it is said that vishnu loka, shiva loka, brahma loka are all destroyed during mahapralaya. So yes they are within samsara.Sherab Dorje wrote:According to Shaivites, yes. According to (some) Buddhists he dwells in the Indras Palace in the Trāyastriṃśa heaven of the god realms. That would place him squarely within samsara.ConradTree wrote:page 184 for phowa.
I guess Shiva does have a Pure Land.
Interesting, yet the Chinese Buddhist Tradition have a long standing animosity against Tantrism and some of its practices, even mentioned by modern ones like the late Ven Dr Yinshun in one of his seminal works, 'The Way to Buddhahood'. There's one poster on this forum as I recall on this forum who insists that Tantric Buddhism developed from (Kashmiri?) Saivaite sources and h/she comes from the Chinese Buddhist Trad as I recall...Well, thanks to our ancient Chinese friends, there's a record of the development of Tantrism in Buddhism, and it obviously was being derived from Pure Land Buddhism, and not Shaivaism. Visualization, mandala's, and initiation rituals( in the aptly named Abhiseka-sutra (T1331) ), were all in place before the 5th century. I also strongly suspect, that some important aspects, such as working with the subtle energy system, originated with Chinese pilgrims, who wouldn't have been staying with Shavites.
Abhiseka rites from Pure Land Buddhism?
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Or the teaching of karma is directly adopted from hinduism,and that the Shakyamuni learned sankhyaplwk wrote:As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Maybe western Theravadins.smcj wrote:That's the kind of thing that drives Therarvadans crazy. Good thing we have two separate websites!Sakya Pandita is very clear virtually all the practices in Buddhist tantra have Shaiva, etc., counterparts.
As if Shravakayana isn't an Indian system.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
And yet they have their fabricated Abhidharma.plwk wrote:As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
Mahayana developed in Andhra Pradesh as a response to Abhidharma.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Well, the only ones who may agree with this would be the modern 'Sutta only' Theravadins, which is reminiscent of their ancient cousin, the Sarvastivadin Sautrantikas. Still, I get the familiar old diehard tale of Sariputta obtaining the Abhidhamma from the Buddha tale from the conservatives...And yet they have their fabricated Abhidharma.As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
Mahayana developed in Andhra Pradesh as a response to Abhidharma.
Interesting topic though but I am still wondering if there's any truth to what the likes of Ambedkar and his circles who consistently maintain that it's the Hindus who 'pillaged' the Buddhists for temples and teaching, the notion that it is they the Hindus who copied from us and adapted it, making it as if it's us, the Buddhists who owe them the devata pantheon. One Sutra I recall though is the Karandavyuha Sutra on just how extensive Avalokitesvara is in relation to the various devatas especially Mahesvara...
I am also aware of how complex Indian history and Indian Buddhism's history is considering myriad competing claims and facts... but especially with Buddhist Tantric stuff
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Ah yes, I heard of this too but really, with the complex issues surrounding the historical Buddha, what he actually adopted or not are dealt with pages and pages of scholarship and facts, so I guess it would depend on whose version one is buying... Teachers like Ajahn Thanissaro, Bhante S Dhammika, Ajahn Sujato and many more have dealt on (and refuting) what are commonly held views on karma & rebirth in Hinduism (and Jainism) compared with or versus what the Buddha had taught in the Sutta PitakaOr the teaching of karma is directly adopted from hinduism,and that the Shakyamuni learned sankhyaAs if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Oh yes they would mind. They may worship all the Hindu gods but they consider themselves 100% Buddhist.Son of Buddha wrote:they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping Brahma
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Obviously you didn't consult Indian Esoteric Buddhism by Ronald Davidson to notice half the book is about Saivism.Zen Dude wrote: Well, thanks to our ancient Chinese friends, there's a record of the development of Tantrism in Buddhism, and it obviously was being derived from Pure Land Buddhism, and not Shaivaism.
We have many Sanskrit originals of Buddhist tantras, as well as Tibetan copies. There is no need to guess where Buddhist tantra comes from.
Every scholar acknowledges the indebtedness to Saivism.
Here is another book on both these points:
Cakrasamvara Tantra by David Gray
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
That the tantras were based on tirthika practices originally really shouldn't bother Vajrayana practitioners who have faith in their practices. Some might be generous and say the tirthika view isn't really that different from the Buddhist view and grant that some tirthikas might have reached liberation, but you don't need to accept that, if these practices work, they work. Also, tirthikas lack bodhicitta, the defining feature of all Mahayana paths.
Sutrayana practitioners might criticise us but in the end not just their practice, but even some of Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings (not all of course) originated from tirthikas. Some other of their practice is also based on not specifically Buddhist or non-Indian practice (Hindu gods in Thailand, Chinese gods in China etc)
The concept of karma existed before Shakyamuni Buddha but he was the one who really formulated as being based mainly on intent rather than pure action.
Sutrayana practitioners might criticise us but in the end not just their practice, but even some of Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings (not all of course) originated from tirthikas. Some other of their practice is also based on not specifically Buddhist or non-Indian practice (Hindu gods in Thailand, Chinese gods in China etc)
The concept of karma existed before Shakyamuni Buddha but he was the one who really formulated as being based mainly on intent rather than pure action.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Right, the Pure Land sutra's predate anything from Saivism by 500 years. The first evidence of visualization, and the first evidence of an abiseka, come from apocryphal sutra's written in China. Nothing in Sanskrit predates that.ConradTree wrote: We have many Sanskrit originals of Buddhist tantras, as well as Tibetan copies. There is no need to guess where Buddhist tantra comes from.
That's not what I'm debating. What I'm debating is Sanderson's contention that everything in Tantra, arouse in Saivism first. That's simply not true. If his stance was the same as Davidson's, that Saivite's and Buddhist's borrowed extensively from each other - that seems pretty close to the truth.Every scholar acknowledges the indebtedness to Saivism.
Telepaths - I like to kill them
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
"Just don't tell the Thais that the Ramakien is Hindu and everything will be alright!"Sherab Dorje wrote:Oh yes they would mind. They may worship all the Hindu gods but they consider themselves 100% Buddhist.Son of Buddha wrote:they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping Brahma
they already worship Hindu Gods so why would they care?
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India by Giovanni VerardiConradTree wrote: Where did you get this image from?
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=nkt9 ... CCoQ6AEwAA
Telepaths - I like to kill them
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Tell you what, since you are so cock sure of yourself and your opinion, the next time you talk to a Thai tell them they are a Hindu and then come back and tell us what their reaction was. Oh, a word of advice, make sure they are not Nak Muay.Son of Buddha wrote:they already worship Hindu Gods so why would they care?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Ummm...how about the rig veda?Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.Malcolm wrote:Ummm...how about the rig veda?Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Telepaths - I like to kill them
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
More like an innovation in India from whoever created the inner yogatantras.Zen Dude wrote:My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.Malcolm wrote:Ummm...how about the rig veda?Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
So now you are claiming Buddhist tantra comes from China?Zen Dude wrote:My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.Malcolm wrote:Ummm...how about the rig veda?Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...