Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

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Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

I think the picture is complicated.

Meditative practices involving visualizing cosmic Buddhas appear in Mahayana around 300CE or so based on Chinese translations, which might be considered the beginning of what later was classified as "kriya" tantra. I think this was definitely a novel development within the period since one might argue that dharanis had precedents in Vedic practices. Still, is the application of them as a means of meditation or soteriology extant in Vedic sources rather than just using them for magical/ritual purposes? Anyway, we don't really know what was going on with the Hindus because texts within India itself in Indian languages are notoriously difficult to date; we can date Buddhists works mainly because they were translated into other languages.

On the other hand, Sanderson demonstrates even in some of the surviving kriya tantra texts in Chinese translated in Chinese there exists references to elements which were otherwise not extant in Buddhist tantra and more similar to Shaivite iconography (Tumburu cult, skullcups, human hair). He does note that this was something that separated it from the rest of the works that Amoghavajra translated.

Of course, here the problem might really be with him using the classification into kriya, carya and yoga tantra as a guideline for dating, which might be broadly useful in general as a guide to developments at each stage of tantra but difficult when it comes to specific texts.
Son of Buddha
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Son of Buddha »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:
Sakya Pandita is very clear virtually all the practices in Buddhist tantra have Shaiva, etc., counterparts.
That's the kind of thing that drives Therarvadans crazy. Good thing we have two separate websites!
Just don't tell the Thais that the Ramakien is Hindu and everything will be alright!
they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping Brahma
(the general held view is that only monks can become Enlightenened...so this doesnt leave very much choices for the laity....many try for the Pure abodes still that is difficult...so most thais either seek to be born in tusita heaven with maitreya or be reborn in a brahman realm)

So Hindu dieties have a unique and permanent place in Theravadan Buddhism.

Mahayana uses the dieties in a lesser extent since we have Pure Lands.

I have started seeing a merging of traditions in Cambodhia and Buruma where some of my friends are stuanch Thervadans.....but instead of seeking to be reborn in heaven brahma realm.....they are seeking too be reborn in Mahayana Pure land.
Rakz
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Rakz »

plwk wrote:
Even in Hinduism it is said that vishnu loka, shiva loka, brahma loka are all destroyed during mahapralaya. So yes they are within samsara.
I doubt the Vaishnavas & the Srimad Bhagavatam will agree with you about Vaikunta...
So how can we view Vaikunta as Buddhists?
plwk
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by plwk »

So how can we view Vaikunta as Buddhists?
See your own answer in bold...
Nighthawk wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
ConradTree wrote:page 184 for phowa.

I guess Shiva does have a Pure Land.
According to Shaivites, yes. According to (some) Buddhists he dwells in the Indras Palace in the Trāyastriṃśa heaven of the god realms. That would place him squarely within samsara.
Even in Hinduism it is said that vishnu loka, shiva loka, brahma loka are all destroyed during mahapralaya. So yes they are within samsara.
Well, thanks to our ancient Chinese friends, there's a record of the development of Tantrism in Buddhism, and it obviously was being derived from Pure Land Buddhism, and not Shaivaism. Visualization, mandala's, and initiation rituals( in the aptly named Abhiseka-sutra (T1331) ), were all in place before the 5th century. I also strongly suspect, that some important aspects, such as working with the subtle energy system, originated with Chinese pilgrims, who wouldn't have been staying with Shavites.
Interesting, yet the Chinese Buddhist Tradition have a long standing animosity against Tantrism and some of its practices, even mentioned by modern ones like the late Ven Dr Yinshun in one of his seminal works, 'The Way to Buddhahood'. There's one poster on this forum as I recall on this forum who insists that Tantric Buddhism developed from (Kashmiri?) Saivaite sources and h/she comes from the Chinese Buddhist Trad as I recall...

Abhiseka rites from Pure Land Buddhism? :shrug:
hop.pala
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by hop.pala »

plwk wrote:As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
Or the teaching of karma is directly adopted from hinduism,and that the Shakyamuni learned sankhya :P
ConradTree
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by ConradTree »

smcj wrote:
Sakya Pandita is very clear virtually all the practices in Buddhist tantra have Shaiva, etc., counterparts.
That's the kind of thing that drives Therarvadans crazy. Good thing we have two separate websites!
Maybe western Theravadins.

As if Shravakayana isn't an Indian system.
ConradTree
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by ConradTree »

plwk wrote:As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
And yet they have their fabricated Abhidharma.

Mahayana developed in Andhra Pradesh as a response to Abhidharma.
plwk
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by plwk »

As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
And yet they have their fabricated Abhidharma.

Mahayana developed in Andhra Pradesh as a response to Abhidharma.
Well, the only ones who may agree with this would be the modern 'Sutta only' Theravadins, which is reminiscent of their ancient cousin, the Sarvastivadin Sautrantikas. Still, I get the familiar old diehard tale of Sariputta obtaining the Abhidhamma from the Buddha tale from the conservatives...

Interesting topic though but I am still wondering if there's any truth to what the likes of Ambedkar and his circles who consistently maintain that it's the Hindus who 'pillaged' the Buddhists for temples and teaching, the notion that it is they the Hindus who copied from us and adapted it, making it as if it's us, the Buddhists who owe them the devata pantheon. One Sutra I recall though is the Karandavyuha Sutra on just how extensive Avalokitesvara is in relation to the various devatas especially Mahesvara...
I am also aware of how complex Indian history and Indian Buddhism's history is considering myriad competing claims and facts... but especially with Buddhist Tantric stuff
plwk
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by plwk »

As if some of the Theravadins haven't suspected all this while what a 'fabrication' Mahayana stuff has been ...
Or the teaching of karma is directly adopted from hinduism,and that the Shakyamuni learned sankhya :P
Ah yes, I heard of this too but really, with the complex issues surrounding the historical Buddha, what he actually adopted or not are dealt with pages and pages of scholarship and facts, so I guess it would depend on whose version one is buying... Teachers like Ajahn Thanissaro, Bhante S Dhammika, Ajahn Sujato and many more have dealt on (and refuting) what are commonly held views on karma & rebirth in Hinduism (and Jainism) compared with or versus what the Buddha had taught in the Sutta Pitaka
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Grigoris
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Grigoris »

Son of Buddha wrote:they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping Brahma
Oh yes they would mind. They may worship all the Hindu gods but they consider themselves 100% Buddhist.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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ConradTree
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by ConradTree »

Zen Dude wrote: Well, thanks to our ancient Chinese friends, there's a record of the development of Tantrism in Buddhism, and it obviously was being derived from Pure Land Buddhism, and not Shaivaism.
Obviously you didn't consult Indian Esoteric Buddhism by Ronald Davidson to notice half the book is about Saivism.

We have many Sanskrit originals of Buddhist tantras, as well as Tibetan copies. There is no need to guess where Buddhist tantra comes from.

Every scholar acknowledges the indebtedness to Saivism.

Here is another book on both these points:

Cakrasamvara Tantra by David Gray
Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

That the tantras were based on tirthika practices originally really shouldn't bother Vajrayana practitioners who have faith in their practices. Some might be generous and say the tirthika view isn't really that different from the Buddhist view and grant that some tirthikas might have reached liberation, but you don't need to accept that, if these practices work, they work. Also, tirthikas lack bodhicitta, the defining feature of all Mahayana paths.

Sutrayana practitioners might criticise us but in the end not just their practice, but even some of Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings (not all of course) originated from tirthikas. Some other of their practice is also based on not specifically Buddhist or non-Indian practice (Hindu gods in Thailand, Chinese gods in China etc)

The concept of karma existed before Shakyamuni Buddha but he was the one who really formulated as being based mainly on intent rather than pure action.
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BrianG
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by BrianG »

ConradTree wrote: We have many Sanskrit originals of Buddhist tantras, as well as Tibetan copies. There is no need to guess where Buddhist tantra comes from.
Right, the Pure Land sutra's predate anything from Saivism by 500 years. The first evidence of visualization, and the first evidence of an abiseka, come from apocryphal sutra's written in China. Nothing in Sanskrit predates that.
Every scholar acknowledges the indebtedness to Saivism.
That's not what I'm debating. What I'm debating is Sanderson's contention that everything in Tantra, arouse in Saivism first. That's simply not true. If his stance was the same as Davidson's, that Saivite's and Buddhist's borrowed extensively from each other - that seems pretty close to the truth.
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Son of Buddha
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Son of Buddha »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:they wouldnt mind....Thais are very big on worshiping Brahma
Oh yes they would mind. They may worship all the Hindu gods but they consider themselves 100% Buddhist.
"Just don't tell the Thais that the Ramakien is Hindu and everything will be alright!"

they already worship Hindu Gods so why would they care?
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BrianG
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by BrianG »

ConradTree wrote: Where did you get this image from?
Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India by Giovanni Verardi
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=nkt9 ... CCoQ6AEwAA
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Grigoris
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Grigoris »

Son of Buddha wrote:they already worship Hindu Gods so why would they care?
Tell you what, since you are so cock sure of yourself and your opinion, the next time you talk to a Thai tell them they are a Hindu and then come back and tell us what their reaction was. Oh, a word of advice, make sure they are not Nak Muay.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Ummm...how about the rig veda?
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BrianG
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by BrianG »

Malcolm wrote:
Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Ummm...how about the rig veda?
My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.
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Sherlock
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Sherlock »

Zen Dude wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Ummm...how about the rig veda?
My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.
More like an innovation in India from whoever created the inner yogatantras.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Zen Dude wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Zen Dude wrote:=the first evidence of an abiseka...
Ummm...how about the rig veda?
My understanding is that in that context, it would be only performed for gods/god-kings. Introducing it's usage to commoners looks like an innovation on the Chinese side.
So now you are claiming Buddhist tantra comes from China?
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