Your gender and sexuality

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

Your gender and sexuality?

Female-Gay
2
5%
Female-Bi
3
7%
Female-Straight
1
2%
Male-Gay
10
23%
Male-Bi
2
5%
Male-Straight
23
52%
Interesex-Gay
0
No votes
Interesex-Bi
0
No votes
Interesex-Straight
0
No votes
Female, Male or Interesex; Asexual
3
7%
 
Total votes: 44

JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

I agree this is a discussion we need to have. And I am sorry if my opinions regarding identity politics contributed to the derailing of the thread, though in many ways it derailed well before that.

I really do feel the IP framework further marginalizes disadvantaged groups rather than helping them.
I am for a dialogue of these isdues and have advocated strongly for the reopening of the race thread


I feel so strongly about this at the moment because we are in the midst of an election in India. I see how politicians are dividing the seemingly endless cultural, religious and caste subgroups here to win an election, in many cases so they can enrich themselves through corruption.


But if this opinion became a diatribe and those words meant I marginalized people, I sincerely apologize. This will be my last post on the IP topic, remind me if I break this promise.

I also apologize to Unxzi if my judgement was unfair. I perceived real inaction in a very real situation at his dharma centre in favour of a difficult dialogue interspersed with jargon here. Obviously people think I was ungenerous and even unfair in this estimation so I must also consider that.

It is very hard to determine people's character and intentions on the internet. Sometimes In the heat of yhe moment I jump to conclusions and for that I can only apologize.

I would never condone the varipus quips basically telling people to get a life ot shut up that were used here. Completely counter productive.
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Adi »

Emphasis on division and difference will produce more division and difference just as pouring more water on water makes things wetter. This is a clear lesson recently learned by the gay rights movement in the United States. Public opinion rapidly turned to overall support when more people started to realize that their gay neighbors were pretty much like them, not so different after all.

Again, HH Dalai Lama:
Because we all share an identical need for love, it is possible to feel that anybody we meet, in whatever circumstances, is a brother or sister. No matter how new the face or how different the dress and behavior, there is no significant division between us and other people. It is foolish to dwell on external differences, because our basic natures are the same.
Buddhists have what is perhaps a perspective shared only by the sciences of the last few decades, beautifully summed up in what is called Bell's Theorem and soon to be proved as Bell's Law. It states "All reality is non-local." This is interdependent origination and the interconnectedness of all things put down in math and being proven in particle accelerators. If society follows such knowledge and realizations we have a real chance of uniting as a human species and coming together as never before in recorded history.

Or we can go back to the old understanding of this is here and that is there and if I burn something in Chicago it won't make people in New York cough and die early. We can also go back to them and us or even create more and more discrete groups that work hard to celebrate not the wondrous diversity of life but the seeming differences. So much of the methods of dialogue and politics thus far talked about rely on this old misunderstanding of discrete entities unconnected to each other, entities that need a catalog of different labels to somehow be real.

I've been at ground zero of several moments in time where things changed to a wider understanding. When people looked around and noticed the overwhelming commonality between them and stopped fixating on hair color, eye color, skin color or who they fancy. Those moments may not have become the norm, but they existed and people began looking for them, some even building on them for many reasons, one of the simplest being that the truth of Bodhicitta starts to shine through even to those who've never heard that term.

Crisis and death and disaster often bring people together but it is my dearest wish that it won't take such things for more people to indeed realize that "there is no significant division between us and other people." In the meantime of course we work to stop people abusing other people as they do so out of profound ignorance. No one should be beaten, raped or feel that the only way out is to kill themselves. All that must cease. But unless we get people to realize the real horror is not that we do violence to them but that we do it to all of us it's not going to get any better.

At least those are my thoughts, offered for whatever anyone cares to think of them. I'm getting older, much more tired, and perhaps don't understand a lot of things others hold dear. Those are all my faults and if I've offended anyone kindly accept my sincerest apology.

I'll close with some of my favorite lines from The Words of My Perfect Teacher :
I know all the details of karma, but I do not really believe in it.
I have heard a lot of Dharma, but never put it into practice.
Bless me and evil-doers like me
That our minds my mingle with the Dharma.
Adi
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Simon E. »

:good:
JKhedrup wrote:Untxci I'm going to be honest.I don't doubt your sincerity regarding the anti-oppression work you want to implement in your Sangha.

But I doubt your appetite for true action or your willingness to lose your position on the board in order to be a true advocate. Instead you brought your mission here, under the safety of your chosen anonymity you have nothing to lose. You chose to fight in a safe arena.

People here may be impressed by your ability to talk the talk by using words like heteronormative etc. But when I asked you to walk the walk and proposed very basic courses of action you gave excuses as to why they weren't possible or tried to bring the discussion back to the formula of identity politics.

I am also not as active as I could or maybe should be in challenging barriers, but I have not tried to frame myself as an ally because I am not worthy of that title.

Identity politics can and must be discussed here because it is the jargon and framework that has been taken for granted as what we have to use in these discussions.

IP can have its function, such as in the work of Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak, who used it in the field of Indian literature to give native writers a voice apart from colonialism.

However, did you know IP is also used by people like Geert Wilders and Marine LePen?

It has led to the Balkanization and exacerbation of ethnic tensions in Europe. Communities no longer talk to eachother. For the minority communities this leads to isolation, lack of access to education and barriers to upward mobility for their childten. The consequence of such difficulties can manifest as for example the recent race riots in Britain.

The emphasis on dialogue structures of IP in modern academia leads to the Balkanization of the student body. I remember how at my university the IP paradigm was presented in a class on Middle Eastern politics. Within moments the Palestinian and Isreali students were at eachother's throats. I physically stood between two students who were ready to throw punches. A similar less Intense version manifested later between Shia and Sunni students. Prior to the IP paradigm being introduced, everyone was getting along fine.

My opinion is that IP is a dangerous illusion that offers the pretext of voicing oppression but results in the further disenfranchisement, isolation and poverty of marginalized groups. Worse, it can be hijacked by the likes of Wilders etc to exclude members of minority groups from participating in society and to introduce draconian immigration policies.

IP's final result in the further Balkanization of humanity, which ultimately lead to impoverished countries and classes being stuck in that poverty.

IP is also highly presumptuous, locking out less educated or literate groups. When I think of the jargon and charts presented here, I am so amazed people don't see how elitest it is.

Here in India IP has hijacked the political system. Politicians play various communities against eachother to win seats. The plethora of special interest parties has led to an overburdened political system that cannot address the pressing povertt, resource scarcity and environmental degradation of this amazing country. It breaks my heart.

My conclusion: IP has been a miserable failure, successful only at creating a tiny subclass of tenured elites.

:good:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Simon E. »

So, from a total membership of 4754...... 35 votes have been submitted.

THIRTY FIVE.

And at least one of those ( mine ) was completely arbitrary ..because the poll was rigged so that you could not read the votes unless you voted.

Thousands of words...much hurumphing. A display of jargon the like of which I have not encountered since I last read the details of my pension plan.

And an assumption of Specialness.

An assumption that the way in which Dukkha was operating in certain lives makes them special.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
muni
Posts: 4941
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

I can be wrong but this tread seems for me to point to misperception, clinging to appearances/gender.
To identify being with merely the body is the basis for discriminations.
Then no peace, no equality, no love. :yinyang:

May Bodhichitta shine by the blessings of awaken guidance.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Berry
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Berry »

Image
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

Having given it some thought I think there are ways to further this dialogue.

We can have two threads with two frameworks. The first can be the discussion that may have been the intent of the OP (correct me if I am wrong)
How does the outlook of members from dominant groups impact the environment which leads to the lack of participation of marginalized groups (ethnic/ racial/orientation/class)? How can anti oppression structures and discussion facilitate changing this? ( of course I would advocate real tangible actions but I will share that if the thread actually starts)

Conversation two would be, what impact do traditional Buddhist views on karma and selflessness have on how you have dealt with experiences of oppression or abuse in your life?

Then we can have a clearer direction and less fighting in the discussion. Just an idea.

Botg coversations would require a willingness to listen to people's experiences to be successful.
muni
Posts: 4941
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

Well, I appear as woman, hetero. I must say the more one feels to identify with weaker/stronger/righter/wronger than the other, there are problems. It is so that as woman, I can turn intimidated by men and then going to protest. This is completely different than to see there are no differences other then by habits. The attitude then can speak for itself while protecting those who cannot.

I am not speaking about men-women differences by wages and so on, but how to see oneself in society.

:namaste:
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

JKhedrup wrote:I agree this is a discussion we need to have. And I am sorry if my opinions regarding identity politics contributed to the derailing of the thread, though in many ways it derailed well before that.

I really do feel the IP framework further marginalizes disadvantaged groups rather than helping them.
I am for a dialogue of these isdues and have advocated strongly for the reopening of the race thread


I feel so strongly about this at the moment because we are in the midst of an election in India. I see how politicians are dividing the seemingly endless cultural, religious and caste subgroups here to win an election, in many cases so they can enrich themselves through corruption.


But if this opinion became a diatribe and those words meant I marginalized people, I sincerely apologize. This will be my last post on the IP topic, remind me if I break this promise.

I also apologize to Unxzi if my judgement was unfair. I perceived real inaction in a very real situation at his dharma centre in favour of a difficult dialogue interspersed with jargon here. Obviously people think I was ungenerous and even unfair in this estimation so I must also consider that.

It is very hard to determine people's character and intentions on the internet. Sometimes In the heat of yhe moment I jump to conclusions and for that I can only apologize.

I would never condone the varipus quips basically telling people to get a life ot shut up that were used here. Completely counter productive.
You aren't the only one that feels this way about IP, I completely agree with the things you've posted on it - i'd even argue they are borne out somewhat by this thread. The problem is that IP has been accepted as canon by many "liberal" folks for the most part, so when you are not supportive of it people make all kinds of unfair assumptions about what you do and do not support, and what your politics or agenda might be.

Also Adi, fantastic post.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
JKhedrup
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

Before I became a monk I voted for either the NDP (a social democratic party) or the Liberals ( a left of centre party).

I support in many cases affirmative action. I support a proactive, practical approach to address barriers to the participation of marginalized groups in Buddhism- I stated this very clearly in the race discussion. In this thread I stated very clearly I am not against same sex marriage, and agree that other sexualities should be able to participate in the monastic Sangha.

People's views are more complex than we give them credit for, especially when we try to divide them into the categories of friend and enemy.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I'm probably considerably further to the left of the vast majority of "IP" folks heh.. and also in favor of the things you mention typically.I only mentioned it because IP it's a point where people think it means one is automatically a"liberal" for supporting it, but as you mentioned earlier, it actually crosses political lines, being used also by far-right parties.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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rory
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Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by rory »

And another thread shut down; almost exactly like the African-American thread. Somebody doesn't want to listen. Oh well this nice example of the via negativa
does show me how not to behave when trying to form a diverse group within my sect.
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Adi
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Adi »

Disagreement is not shutting something down, it's a reflection that consensus has not been reached or isn't possible.

Adi
Last edited by Adi on Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

This is the kind of exercise and dialogue that really transforms and challenged these attitudes.

Simple, down to earth and free of isolating jargon. I went through this type of exercise and found it very informative:

phpBB [video]
JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

A proactive, non-elitist, non-political approach:

phpBB [video]


An active approach based on creating experiences rather than pontificating.

An approach that people in the groups in power cannot hijack and apply to themselves, leading to the opposite of the intended effect.

An approach that has been used successfully for over 40 years in anti-oppression training.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rory wrote:And another thread shut down; almost exactly like the African-American thread. Somebody doesn't want to listen. Oh well this nice example of the via negativa
does show me how not to behave when trying to form a diverse group within my sect.
Rory
As a user, not a mod:

I wish you would stop posting provocations in threads every time you disagree with what people say, stop bemoaning the fact that people aren't what you want them to be, and actually pony up a contribution to the thread rather than yet another little quip and check-in. it's really unproductive to post stuff like "people don't wanna listen" simply because there's disagreement with your opinions on a thread, Jkhedrup and others have contributed plenty to the thread..sorry it didn't meet your expectations, but that doesn't make it invalid.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Post by Adi »

JKhedrup wrote:A proactive, non-elitist, non-political approach:

An active approach based on creating experiences rather than pontificating.

An approach that people in the groups in power cannot hijack and apply to themselves, leading to the opposite of the intended effect.

An approach that has been used successfully for over 40 years in anti-oppression training.
The blue-eyed group experience! I love this approach and went through it myself in high school. Most, most instructive. And definitely one where the experience transcends any kind of ideology or terminology. It just works. Very practical.

Adi
Rakz
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Rakz »

Simon E. wrote:So, from a total membership of 4754...... 35 votes have been submitted.
4754 is irrelevant. How many members do you think are actually active from that number?
JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

I agree.

But it does demonstrate that the majority of the people on the board are not interested in this conversation.

Much as people have been maligned by one side or the other for their views, at least they bothered to participate in the discussion.

Simply avoiding it says more, IMO.
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

The exercise transcends the North American cultural sphere and Black/White dynamic and can be applied to race dynamics in the UK:

phpBB [video]
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