Your gender and sexuality

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

Your gender and sexuality?

Female-Gay
2
5%
Female-Bi
3
7%
Female-Straight
1
2%
Male-Gay
10
23%
Male-Bi
2
5%
Male-Straight
23
52%
Interesex-Gay
0
No votes
Interesex-Bi
0
No votes
Interesex-Straight
0
No votes
Female, Male or Interesex; Asexual
3
7%
 
Total votes: 44

Adi
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Adi »

JKhedrup wrote:...
But it does demonstrate that the majority of the people on the board are not interested in this conversation….
I don't think it rises to the level of demonstration but it can certainly be said to imply such a thing. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence and all that sort of thing.

But I do agree that the two frameworks you proposed would be a very good way to see what's up with people if they care to talk about these issues.

Adi
muni
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

rory wrote:Somebody doesn't want to listen.
Good morning,

I remember now this sentence: if we want to change the world, we must start by ourselves. For me, I am land into this testosteron world, and am exhausted to try to change it. This arrogantly world.
It is like trying to change the clouds into perfect forms or hoping to change the outerly appearances into equality.
The way how I look to all, can show many different worlds. One place can have different colors and the magician of these is mind. Buddha wasn’t shooting all maras ( while I am specialized ) but remained aware of peace in mind. I guess, one can try to restore peace in own mind and see the change.

Compassion by/as own being is great power. Judgements are fruitless and the result is suffering.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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rory
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by rory »

Johnny Dangerously
As a user, not a mod:

I wish you would stop posting provocations in threads every time you disagree with what people say, stop bemoaning the fact that people aren't what you want them to be, and actually pony up a contribution to the thread rather than yet another little quip and check-in. it's really unproductive to post stuff like "people don't wanna listen" simply because there's disagreement with your opinions on a thread, Jkhedrup and others have contributed plenty to the thread..sorry it didn't meet your expectations, but that doesn't make it invalid.
Actually this is what I was referring to;
a post by Caldorian:
As someone directly affected, I would like to thank untxi publicly for his effort (I did so already via pm). I was very grateful that he tried to educate people on these forums because I didn't have the strength to do so myself at the moment.

I didn't want to get involved (and I'm still not interested in discussing this), but I must be honest: this thread has been so disappointing and revealing with how strongly this community specifically (and the larger Buddhist community) uses all kinds of deflection mechanisms for handling systematic social injustice; there was resistance to really engage in a constructive and meaningful conversation as well as derailment over terminology instead of acknowledgement of problems from the very beginning. To be frank, this thread made me lose my interest in this community and my wish to participate in it in any way.

I know that it doesn't mean much from a lurker; still, before people start to dogpile untxi for his efforts, I thought it was fair to support him publicly.
May we all be happy, peaceful, compassionate, and wise!
I told Caldorian I would listen. No one else spoke to him or asked him about his experiences. You all are deflecting, deflecting, deflecting. It wasn't about me, it was about him.

And yes, listening to another person's problems, issues, difficulties in their own words is the simplest way to understand. I'm truly astounded at the lack of compassion people here are showing
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
muni
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

May we all be happy, peaceful, compassionate, and wise!
Dito. :heart:
All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy.

Wisdoms' compassion is never leaving. Wisdom only reveals itself by connection with the heart.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
thigle
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by thigle »

muni wrote: All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy
:rolleye:
Simon E.
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Simon E. »

muni wrote:
May we all be happy, peaceful, compassionate, and wise!
Dito. :heart:
All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy.

Wisdoms' compassion is never leaving. Wisdom only reveals itself by connection with the heart.

Zip adee doo dah zippa dee ay...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
muni
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

thigle wrote:
muni wrote: All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy
:rolleye:
Bodhicaryavatara.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Berry
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Berry »

muni wrote:
All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy.

Wisdoms' compassion is never leaving. Wisdom only reveals itself by connection with the heart.

Sorry, but It would be nice to read the posts relevant to the topic rather than these (judgemental?)interruptions.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
muni
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by muni »

Berry wrote:
muni wrote:
All happiness comes from the wish others to be happy. All misery comes from the wish may I be happy.

Wisdoms' compassion is never leaving. Wisdom only reveals itself by connection with the heart.

Sorry, but It would be nice to read the posts relevant to the topic rather than these (judgemental?)interruptions.
Depends how you look. For me it is suffering to hope to get compassion from others while having compassion oneself makes things all go easier.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Adi »

The quote people are referring to, incorrectly, is from The Way of the Bodhisattva by Shantideva:
Whatever joy there is in this world,
All comes from wanting others to be happy.
Whatever suffering there is in this world,
All comes from wanting oneself to be happy.
--Bodhicharyavatara, VIII, 129. (Padmakara Translation)

That book and the wisdom in it are highly recommended by Tibetan Buddhist schools, teachers and practitioners.

Adi
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rory wrote:
And yes, listening to another person's problems, issues, difficulties in their own words is the simplest way to understand. I'm truly astounded at the lack of compassion people here are showing
gassho
Rory


I don't believe me or anyone else is "deflecting" or ignoring someone based on voicing of their opinions (particularly when those leveling this claims have NO IDEA the kind of life I or anyone else has lived, nor my or anyone else's experiences with the subjects of the thread), and I find it very hard to listen to anyone who is posting what amounts to a justification for ignoring all opinions but their own, based on their own subjective analysis of what is going on in the minds of other people.

If someone won't tackle the subjects in the thread, rather than a veiled attempt to pass judgement on other personalities in the thread, I don't see a reason to pay much attention, that is not particularly adult behavior, and it doesn't deserve much notice, IMO of course. I am sorry that some people perceive a lack of compassion, I wish that wasn't so, and I hope there is compassion here for such an important subject. I am not sure what an outpouring of compassion is supposed to look like in a thread on these subjects though...I would think that simple acknowledgment of the problems, and interest in solutions, is a start - and that has been there with the majority of the participants in the thread. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I do feel that screaming from the sidelines about being ignored simply because someone disagrees is not reasonable behavior...unless of course, someone wants to point out how they are actually being ignored, then maybe there's something for the people being accused of the ignoring to work with, otherwise it's just a personal swipe essentially.

So let me ask those that are concerned about "shutting down", other than a post which amounted to blanket condemnation of anyone who disagrees with Unxti in this thread, what exactly are people supposed to "listen to", that you believe they are ignoring? Further, what constitutes "compassionate behavior" here, simply letting people get on soapboxes uncritically, just listening without replying...what? If you want to complain about lack of compassion, I would like to know what exactly you are seeing that makes you say that.

If people want to be listened to, and feel that is not happening, they need to post something that people can mull over, and/or concrete suggestions (basically Jkhedrup is about the only person in thread by my estimation who even did this), not just complaints about how insensitive or lacking in compassion others are.

Let me make it clear: I am personally very interested in hearing people's experiences, and hopefully educating myself more, but i'm not interested in constantly being called out every time I disagree, or find a post questionable, or hold a different opinion - now THAT is deflection, and beyond that it is not conversation in good faith, and I don't know why anyone would expect people to listen to them in such an environment, regardless of how legitimate their grievances are- and I agree 100% that they are legitimate grievances, which need addressing.

Further, JKhedrup created a thread for this very purpose, so people can share their experiences. Personally, I am watching the thread - so far no one has shared anything at all, which to me is confusing, if there are people wanting to be listened to uncritically regarding their experiences, that seems like a great place to start. Failing that, i'm forced to conclude that claims about people not listening are due more to frustrations about the lack of ideological conformity than anything else.

All people can do is do their best to talk in good faith, listen in good faith, and keep their ears open, that's it - that is the best you can get on an internet forum.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
greentara
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by greentara »

Johnny dangerous, "I'm forced to conclude that claims about people not listening are due more to frustrations about the lack of ideological conformity than anything else"
J Khedup in particular has really tried to be most accomodating..... so I couldn't agree more!
JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

No one has actually posted 'their story about oppression' yet. As stated above I tried to facilitate that but the attempt was unsuccessful.

If someone does post their story, then people will have something concrete to consider and work with. That is why Jane Elliott's work is effective.


You have to relate experiences rather than ideologies to address isdues of racism etc. If ideologies were the solution politicians would have solved these issues ages ago.

If we see people are ignoring experiences, choosing whose pain to aknowledge or not based on race, gender, orientation etc then we can accuse them of lack of compassion.

Keep in mind though this is dangerous on a board where actually posters background, ethinicity, gender, might be quite different than what we assume.

But until the posts start getting real and appealing to people's humanity, such an across the board judgement might be premature.

Also, maybe this conversation is harder over the net. Maybe to work it has to be a real time conversation.
zsc
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by zsc »

JKhedrup wrote:No one has actually posted 'their story about oppression' yet. As stated above I tried to facilitate that but the attempt was unsuccessful.

If someone does post their story, then people will have something concrete to consider and work with. That is why Jane Elliott's work is effective.


You have to relate experiences rather than ideologies to address isdues of racism etc. If ideologies were the solution politicians would have solved these issues ages ago.

If we see people are ignoring experiences, choosing whose pain to aknowledge or not based on race, gender, orientation etc then we can accuse them of lack of compassion.

Keep in mind though this is dangerous on a board where actually posters background, ethinicity, gender, might be quite different than what we assume.

But until the posts start getting real and appealing to people's humanity, such an across the board judgement might be premature.

Also, maybe this conversation is harder over the net. Maybe to work it has to be a real time conversation.
This thread, and others, are full of stories. They are not told "in the right way", with words they want to use, and so they have been rejected.

After people see what happens when they put themselves out there, it's no surprise to me that people are relunctant to do so.

Nobody actually owes us anything. No one has to perform on command. They aren't just walking PSAs, so surely we can give it time for people who generously share their experiences to do so whenever they want, if they want.
yolo (but not really).
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ovi
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by ovi »

Divide people by their differences and turn them against each other. Make them believe that their interests are not similar to those of people like them, but with those who divided them in the first place. Whatever you do, don't let them see who the true privileged are, as it would make them more difficult to subdue and control. I'm talking about nationalism, xenophobia, racism, homophobia, sexism and the like. The oppressed have all the reasons to organize and take part in direct action to make their issues known and strive to address them. The only critique that left-wingers have against liberal notions of feminism, anti-racism, internationalism and the like is that they don't address the cause of their problems, the same status-quo whose only goal is to maintain itself, regardless of means.

If you engage in non-virtuous deeds, it will be more difficult to reach liberation. However, the way I see it, the idea of karma isn't to establish a sense of retributive justice, but to go beyond it. To go beyond aversion and desire to see others punished and instead to wish and work for the wellbeing of everybody. Knowing that the more others engage in non-virtuous deeds, the more difficult it will be for them to go beyond suffering, you develop a sense of compassion even for the oppressors. However, to claim that the violence people are subject to merely because of their sexual preferences, or the violence of women being raped is due to their past faults and nothing should be done about it makes you a fool and an ignorant.

There's a quote about this passivity
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor
JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

Zsc never said people had to share their experiences if ypu read above I said we have to invite them in and work on a face to face relationship first.

I alsp said if not one person shares anything that a lesson in itself.


I agree, no one is paid to participate here, sharing the experiences would be doing people a favour. Basically, enfranchised folks like myself a favour.

So though it is not required, I hope some people speak from the heart. I shared about sexual abuse I suffered to try and start that process, and also promised not to rail against IP.

I also apologized for railing against IP if it made people feel further disenfranchised.

You might be interested to know when someone I trusted ( a girlfriend but in a non intimate relationship)broke the confidence about that abuse I experienced in childhood, my whole high school thought it was funny. I was declared a F&* and switched schools in 9th grade because ppl urinated on my gym bag and threw my belongings in the toilet. I never even had an intimate relationship with a woman Until 17 because I worried it might be true what they said. Why was I targeted at 10 years old amd not someone else?

That question haunted me until I entered university in my 17th year and was free of the whispers, snickers, assumptions and lies.

If I had not met my teacher and Buddhism at 13, and had amazing parents, I may have killed myself.

I don't compare this to the racism PoCs experience for example. Being white, I blend in , or could if i wanted to and for example gave up wearing my robes.(well not here in india, but most of the time). I know my story is no big thing as probably many others have been abused.

I am not seeking pity either. Maybe jyst hoping if I share others might consider it.

But still we haven't moved past polemics. Maybe thrse types of issues have to be discussed face to face.
zsc
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by zsc »

JKhedrup - I do appreciate the experiences you have shared here. That is generous beyond a doubt. So make no mistake -- I'm not dismissing you.

My only critique is that asking people to share here seems to come with a lot of strings. To be specific, your statements that say people are not appealing tothe humanity of others and the like, purposefully reframes one side as illegitimate. This isn't just a forum discussion for many of us, this isn't some kind of "oppression olympics" as you rightly imply, this is us just talking. It may not be according to the expected narrative, but as far as I know, everyone who has participated in this discussion have been human beings, talking as human beings.

This experience, right here, is as much a story as any other experience.
yolo (but not really).
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JKhedrup
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by JKhedrup »

Thanks for your considerate reply

This whole exercise has been very nervewracking for many of us, with additional painful interactions occurring over PM

Specifically, I let my personal dislike for IP language due to what is happenibg here in India, blind me to the fact that people were trying to communicate in a way they felt comfortable.

So I can only apologize and try to learn. I think also the nature of message board communications make it harder to reachan understanding of eachother, but at least enough of us are still trying.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Zhen Li »

ovi wrote:Divide people by their differences and turn them against each other. Make them believe that their interests are not similar to those of people like them, but with those who divided them in the first place. Whatever you do, don't let them see who the true privileged are, as it would make them more difficult to subdue and control. I'm talking about nationalism, xenophobia, racism, homophobia, sexism and the like. The oppressed have all the reasons to organize and take part in direct action to make their issues known and strive to address them. The only critique that left-wingers have against liberal notions of feminism, anti-racism, internationalism and the like is that they don't address the cause of their problems, the same status-quo whose only goal is to maintain itself, regardless of means.
I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but I noticed that in the 1960s (not that I remember them), liberals were divided with socialists on the same issues they were divided with conservatives on. For instance, back then, homosexual marriage would have been rejected by socialsits on the grounds that it perpetuates the prison of the bourgeois family, and is just another manifestation of the superstructure rendered existent by the bourgeois mode of production, whereas conservatives would have rejected it on the grounds that it is not traditional marriage, etc. As regards homophobia, to a certain extent, if homosexuality was not public, it was more or less hushed up and accepted for much of human history - it wasn't really until the mid 20th century that the statutory prohibition against it began to give rise to a witch hunt. I think this may have had something to do with the fact that most of all the other stuff that conservatives stood for were gone by then, thus resulting in the creation of causes where none previously really existed - the left does the same thing of course, the whole notion of 'problematizing' captures this very well, where matters that previously were decided by common sense, turn into 'issues:' take for instance "fatism," it's common sense that due to evolution, people are never going to start finding fat people more physically attractive than fit people, but by problematizing the issue, and claiming that it has something to do with conditioning, &c. one can suddenly create a new issue where there was none, campaigning for 'healthy body' image campaigns on the grounds that it will stop "fat shaming," or the like. To a certain extent this is what the right did with homosexuality, which previously was managed to a degree - it was always there, it was to an extent accepted, and aside from the notion of sodomy was often not even considered necessarily a negative thing. The earliest attempts at understanding homosexuality, i.e. identifying it as something unique, really only arrive in the 19th century with the notions of inversion - which is more or less correct according to modern science. Of course, as you know the left were opponents of homosexuality too, it was really only liberals who were supportive in the mid20th century - the mainstream leftist, or to be precise, marxist, view of homosexuality, is that it is a bourgeois construct - ironically, in an attempt to prove this theory, East German scientists (who also used techniques that we'd consider inhumane) found that regardless of conditioning, one cannot fundamentally change sexuality in the vast majority of people, and that the incidence of homosexuality is higher where the childbearing mother is exposed to more stress - hence lowering the amount of testosterone needed for the development of a 'masculine' brain, to put it simply. This is why after the war, there were more homosexuals in Dresden than in most other German cities. I'm not sure if Marxists anywhere changed their stance after this, but the irony is, for the reason that they opposed homosexual marriage, now conservatives are supporting it - i.e. they want everyone to be more bourgeois now, since the old orders are all gone, there's no way to preserve that, so the conservative cause is now the liberal cause, and the liberal cause is now the socialist cause, etc.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Your gender and sexuality

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

JKhedrup wrote:Thanks for your considerate reply

This whole exercise has been very nervewracking for many of us, with additional painful interactions occurring over PM

Specifically, I let my personal dislike for IP language due to what is happenibg here in India, blind me to the fact that people were trying to communicate in a way they felt comfortable.

So I can only apologize and try to learn. I think also the nature of message board communications make it harder to reachan understanding of eachother, but at least enough of us are still trying.

Ditto for me. I looked through some of my previous posts, I stand by the content of what I said, but I was way too abrasive in my delivery in places, and I could have put my thoughts out there in a way that was more conducive to making connections, rather than severing them.

So for anyone who I annoyed with my more acerbic posts, this is my formal apology.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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