Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

Not in this thread, but others, and in PM.
JamyangTashi wrote:I just reviewed the entire thread from page one, paying attention to every post I made. The record agrees with my memory: I did not at any point in this thread say anything of that sort. Please review the thread history if you think something like this was said. The purpose of this thread is to discuss examples and personal experiences of discrimination that can help everyone reach a better understanding of the challenges that other people face, and perhaps to offer compassion or helpful suggestions related to those experiences.

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rory
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by rory »

Thank you for answering my question Jamyang Tashi; I know how women view men's behavior: (ugh that stranger thinks he can have sex with me') can be very different from how men see it: (that's being a man!).

Zhen Li :
Why should women vote in Saudi Arabia? Why should they drive?
Why should a man vote or drive? To be free, independent, in charge of her future. It seems to me from your posts here you are filled with a real dislike/hate of women. I dislike some male behaviors: catcalling, drunken assumptions of sex but I have a wonderful relationship with my father, close male friends and had/have wonderful male mentors. The men I choose to associate with have always been great.

untxi; you are so right, it's considered a crime for African-Americans and Queer people to talk about their experiences and Buddhism. This it's samsara nonsense would mean women would still be legal chattel and African-Americans slaves....it makes me want to vomit.

Fortunately for me I met my new sensei on Sunday and he is a kind compassionate person, as is his disciple the euro-american priest, so now as a normal person I can concentrate on my practice.

JohnnyD; children can be oh so cruel, and I'm sorry you suffered so. At a very young age, my maternal and paternal first cousins would visit us; the former was developmentally disabled the second was a dwarf (he hated the term 'little person') I treated them like I wanted to be treated.
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Just FYI due to the direction the conversation seems to be heading, the ToS states:
No Disclosure of Internal Private Messages/Off-Site Emails or Any Type of Private Correspondence Without Prior Consent from the Sender
Not that it's happened, just a rule to keep in mind.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

JohnnyD; children can be oh so cruel, and I'm sorry you suffered so. At a very young age, my maternal and paternal first cousins would visit us; the former was developmentally disabled the second was a dwarf (he hated the term 'little person') I treated them like I wanted to be treated.
Thanks for reading Rory, it got lost in the ensuing hubub. Not a story I talk about often, and it was surprisingly hard to share it publicly, I hardly ever do.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

Johnny Dangerous...

You might as well just ban me. I've supposedly violated the ToS by threatening and harassing members of this forum as well as its moderators. At least it is so said.

-U
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Just FYI due to the direction the conversation seems to be heading, the ToS states:
No Disclosure of Internal Private Messages/Off-Site Emails or Any Type of Private Correspondence Without Prior Consent from the Sender
Not that it's happened, just a rule to keep in mind.

JamyangTashi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JamyangTashi »

untxi wrote:Not in this thread, but others, and in PM.
JamyangTashi wrote:I just reviewed the entire thread from page one, paying attention to every post I made. The record agrees with my memory: I did not at any point in this thread say anything of that sort. Please review the thread history if you think something like this was said. The purpose of this thread is to discuss examples and personal experiences of discrimination that can help everyone reach a better understanding of the challenges that other people face, and perhaps to offer compassion or helpful suggestions related to those experiences.
I also did not discuss that topic with you in PM. Please review your message history if you think I did. There were comments on that topic made in one other thread where it was relevant to the discussion. If you wish to comment in that thread, that would seem to be the appropriate place to respond to those posts. One of the reasons this thread was created was to try to have a productive discussion without being caught up in the meta-discussion that took over the other thread.
untxi wrote: You might as well just ban me. I've supposedly violated the ToS by threatening and harassing members of this forum as well as its moderators. At least it is so said.
This does not appear to have been said anywhere in this thread, either.

untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

Point one: The only reason there is any "meta-discussion" in this thread is because people started criticizing and denying people's experience-- instead of listening.

Point two: You've made your contempt very clear.

-U
JamyangTashi wrote:I also did not discuss that topic with you in PM. Please review your message history if you think I did. There were comments on that topic made in one other thread where it was relevant to the discussion. If you wish to comment in that thread, that would seem to be the appropriate place to respond to those posts. One of the reasons this thread was created was to try to have a productive discussion without being caught up in the meta-discussion that took over the other thread.

JKhedrup
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JKhedrup »

Please post a quote where I said identifying one's race oe sexual orientation was the same as identity politics. I never said that, and your accusations in that regard are unfair. I identified elite jargon, not accessible to those with English as a second languAge, how the paradigm could be hijacked by the dominant groups, and the crippling effect of playing groups against eachother on Indian democracy as my beef. Also how all the thread had accomplished was fighting.

Those are my issues. If I was against people identifying themselves as Black, Asian etc. Why would I post Jane Elliott's work? Due your personal dislike of me for questioning your methods or lack of action on thr ground, which I apologized for publicly several times you are again jumping to false conclusions and accusing me of saying things in the thread I didn't say. Fortunately people can read the thread and see this for themselvrs. These are accusations I can actually defend myself against.

Everytime the discussion gets difficult you make accusations and walk off. No one is going to ban you. DW is not a police state. B



I apologized to you publicly and privately for jumping to conclusions. Why can you not do the same? There is no face to be lost in admitting our emotions got the better of us, we are ordinary beings with afflictions.

Johnny I found your story very moving, as someone who was also bullied as a child.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:26 am, edited 4 times in total.

JamyangTashi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JamyangTashi »

untxi wrote:Point one: The only reason there is any "meta-discussion" in this thread is because people started criticizing and denying people's experience-- instead of listening.

Point two: You've made your contempt very clear.

-U
Point one: if you look for denial hard enough, you can find it even in posts where there was no denial.

Point two: If you look for contempt hard enough, you can find it even in posts where there was no contempt.

May you cultivate the causes of peace and happiness in your life.

untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

Ven. J Khedrup...

You made it very clear that you felt I was aggressively pushing an identity politics agenda.

-U
JKhedrup wrote:Please post a quote where I said identifying one's race oe sexual orientation was the same as identity politics. I never said that, and your accusations in that regard are unfair. I identified elite jargon, not accessible to those with English as a second languAge, how the paradigm could be hijacked by the dominant groups, and the crippling effect of playing groups against eachother on Indian democracy.

Those are my issues. If I eaa agsinst people identifyong themselves as Black, asian etc. Why would I post Jane Elliott's work? Due yo your perspnsl dislike of me for questioning your methods you are again jumping to false conclusions and accusing me of things I did not do.

JKhedrup
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JKhedrup »

But I never said people identifying their race or orientation was identity politics or part of that agenda. In fact I agreed to even leave the word IP aside completely and not complain about the language.
It is a shame the IP issue was brought over to thus thread. I hoped we could put all agendas aside and just listen to eachother.

JamyangTashi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JamyangTashi »

JKhedrup wrote:I hoped we could put all agendas aside and just listen to eachother.
This is the reason this thread was created. Perhaps we can get back to that now.

untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

The reason there's any meta-discussion is because people are having their experienced criticized. I know I've gotten nothing but a litany of grief for the narratives I've shared. And I didn't couch them in any political structure whatsoever.

-U
JamyangTashi wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:I hoped we could put all agendas aside and just listen to eachother.
This is the reason this thread was created. Perhaps we can get back to that now.

JKhedrup
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JKhedrup »

Not many people responded to the story os sexual abuse I posted,and the prejudiced names I was calked because of it, which was embarrassing to post. That doesn't mean they are unfeeling, maybe they just didn't know to respond.
Ū
People have made assumptions about who I am withput getting to know me since I can remember. Because of the way I talk, because of my eccentric personality, because of my past experiences. Ironically, once I learned their language, it was only from Tibetans I found uncomplicated acceptance.

I then got accused of things I didn't do online and in the thread. But I want to leave this all aside and hear people's e experiences. At this point that is all I am interested in.

If we can all learn to listen, support and apologize when we are wrong the quality of communicatipn will improve.

The more we argue. The less of a safe space the thread becomes.

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rory
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by rory »

I support you both Ven. Khedrup and Jamyang Tashi you've been kind, supportive and listening. Ven. Khedrup I didn't respond as I simply don't know what to say to abuse, it's just so terrible and beyond my experience. I am sorry you were abused, I know it doesn't go away. I can't say anymore because I don't know anymore maybe you will share how this is.

I think Ven. Khedrup may have found me quite sharp but with time I mellowed;-) and am getting to know and develop friendships, like I have with Ven. Indrajala and we have very different opinons. But that's fine too.

JohnnyD it is very hard to say personal things about yourself on a forum like this, where people seemingly are critical and often unkind. And especially for men, they're not permitted to unburden themselves and share their emotions like women are. I think it's very brave of you, especially since these horrible experiences happened to you as a child. Children to my mind really are cruel little savages and need adult guidance to civilize them. You never get over that, I feel for you.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

untxi
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by untxi »

My apologies for derailing this thread.

I'm basically treading water here with very nasty responses to the personal narratives I've shared, and trying to respond to in-thread comments that reflect some of that nastiness. In a nutshell, there are strong objections to my aggressively pushing a political agenda (I don't have one), there are strong objections to my methodology (I don't have one), and there are some very unkind and vicious responses to my personal stories. I can't discuss it beyond that w/o violating the ToS as it involves off forum communications. That said, I really have no problems with anyone here in the two weeks I've been on these two threads of this sub-forum. That same can't be said for others. I'm a big boy. I can handle differences of opinion or personal styles. This is vicious and cruel.

Here's where I cash out my chips. Sadly, I haven't been able to get to the roots of what interests me as all of my energy has been spent challenging the three points above, and generally trying to tread water. I just can't tolerate this magnitude of focused negativity.

Ciao.

JKhedrup
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by JKhedrup »

It is true Rory, we are becoming friends because we made the effort to get to know eachother. Rather than giving up because we have diffetent opinions on a couple of issues.

Now we are friends on facebook amd can appreciate a much broader view of eachother than we would have solely based on interactions here. We no longer have to operate on assumptions we may have made about eachother on the basis of a few forum interactions.

That is the beauty of making the effort to relate human being to human being.

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Zhen Li
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by Zhen Li »

I'll just reply to replies to me, since I am confused as to the rest of what is going on, which I think might be referring to some thread I haven't read or private messages...
rory wrote:Why should a man vote or drive? To be free, independent, in charge of her future.
That's a protestant American talking.

I never said men should be able to vote, what an appalling suggestion! Why that would mean democracy... As for driving, it does not make anyone independent or free. Driving does not have any bearing upon freedom to do stuff - you have to obey more rules and fork more cash over, and tell me what women in Saudi Arabia are working the kinds of jobs that can pay for that? In the end, as it was in the west, it will be men footing the bill for their joy rides. That will be the first few decades, then you will start to see the traditional family crumble and a birth dearth, in a country where formerly you would have twelve kids, you will be lucky to have one. Great life, real fulfilling.
rory wrote:It seems to me from your posts here you are filled with a real dislike/hate of women.
I never actually said anything about women as such, but that I am what you say I tacitly deny. While I don't believe in focusing on differences, in this case it comes down to a fundamental difference in the way you view the welfare of people, and the way I view the welfare of people. I happen to believe that traditional lifestyles were better for both men and women, and that women's so called 'liberation' has long term negative consequences for both men and women. Humans a sexually dimorphic species, and we should divide labour accordingly. The Saudi Arabians, while I have distaste for their culture and religion, happen to not have run into many of the 'first world problems' that come with democracy and forced sexual equality. Of course, I definitely don't agree with Islamic Law and the harsh punishments and strict confines it places upon people for things like adultery and homosexuality - I do agree that the government is best not having any laws relating to homosexuality. As regards what else has been said on this board as regards women, I believe in what is called gender symmetry in domestic violence, and as such, I don't believe it is to dislike women to hold that they might also be guilty of crimes too. Anyone who is guilty of a crime should be held responsible, and we must not have double standards.
rory wrote: I dislike some male behaviors: catcalling, drunken assumptions of sex
So women never catcall? They never openly bellow when they see a man they're attracted to? If anything, they tend to be less controlled when that happens - just look at what happens at boy-band concerts, those aren't men who faint and scream, they're women. In the past four years I heard women openly express their sexual attraction to men dozens of times, but I haven't heard one cat call. One of these women also happened to be extremely manipulative, claimed to have slept with a Saudi prince, turned him gay with her behaviour, and when she didn't get her way should threaten to loose the Mexican and Colombian Mafia on them (she was the niece of the mafia-backed Colombian president Uribe). As for drunken assumptions of sex, what does that mean? So women don't have any drunken assumptions of sex? What are these mono-sexual uni-directional drunken assumptions that have absolutely no influence from women?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rory wrote: JohnnyD it is very hard to say personal things about yourself on a forum like this, where people seemingly are critical and often unkind. And especially for men, they're not permitted to unburden themselves and share their emotions like women are. I think it's very brave of you, especially since these horrible experiences happened to you as a child. Children to my mind really are cruel little savages and need adult guidance to civilize them. You never get over that, I feel for you.
gassho
Rory

Well, it's been good that people put this stuff out there...despite having some disagreements in the past (and i'm sure we will all in the future too lol), I feel like getting to read a bit of your story, and the stories of others has made us more three-dimensional to one another, which is really hard in the internet world.

Some times I think that a huge part of what is going on in these conversations is just the fact that it is hard for us to really empathize with some words on the screen that contradict our beliefs at the time, and connect the fact that it was an actual person writing them. hearing people's personal stories has changed that for me. I still feel like there is a lot of pain in this thread, it's kind of like a tender wound right now in many places. However, that same tenderness I think can be used for something skillful.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Simon E.
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Re: Personal Experiences of Discrimination

Post by Simon E. »

untxi wrote:That is certainly what Johnny Dangerous, Ven. J Khedrup, SImon E and Jamyang Tashi have very explicitly said. Others more dramatically and privately off the forum.

-U
Zhen Li wrote:
untxi wrote:Yet, for some reason, certain types of self-identity really seem to push us off our rails. A Buddhist talks about being black or queer-- and it's all over. We're lost in debates about identity politics.

I really want to know precisely what "identity politics" I'm guilty of pressuring people with on these two threads? I haven't stated any metric that adhering to views X, Y or Z are integral to being either a good citizen or a good Buddhist practitioner. I've not pressured anyone into embracing any spectrum of "political correctness".
Assuming this is following from the rest of the thread, I'm not quite sure where you got the impression that anyone was trying to find you "guilty" of "identity politics." I'm also not quite sure how identifying as black or queer is in any way identity politics - it is identity yes, but not inherently political.
Simon E certainly has not , neither implicitly nor explicitly.
I simply don't care about your politics, or your experiences. Or your apparent compulsion to whine.

Which , and you will find this difficult to believe so you might actually have to unpack it a little instead of making a knee-jerk response, does NOT mean that I don't care about YOU.

You are not in other words, the sum total of your experiences.
We all have tough experiences.
Even rich white males.
It comes with precious human birth.
I don't care about MY tough experiences..and I sure as hell don't care about yours.
Or rory's.
I think you, and she, and I, should get over it.
That's called compassion.
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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