Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

[Sherab]

No, not at all. I have a few Tibetan teachers. I live amongst Tibetans and Ladakhis, too.

Did you notice "regular raping of boys" then? Did you hear stories of regular raping in Tibetan monasteries in the area during this period of your life?

[Huseng]

Did you notice "regular raping of boys" then? Did you hear stories of regular raping in Tibetan monasteries in the area during this period of your life?

I've lived in gonpas that were strictly made up of adults. No underage youths.

Have I heard stories? Yes, I have heard of sexual abuse and people (westerners) being told to keep quiet when they take issue with this and want to bring it to the light.

What I imagine will happen is that in due time the media will catch wind of this and direct their attention to this outstanding issue. TB could easily end up with a reputation like the Catholic Church.

[Sherab]

Did you notice "regular raping of boys" then? Did you hear stories of regular raping in Tibetan monasteries in the area during this period of your life?

I've lived in gonpas that were strictly made up of adults. No underage youths.

No hanky panky among monks that you lived with then?

Have I heard stories? Yes, I have heard of sexual abuse and people (westerners) being told to keep quiet when they take issue with this and want to bring it to the light.

What I imagine will happen is that in due time the media will catch wind of this and direct their attention to this outstanding issue. TB could easily end up with a reputation like the Catholic Church.

Did you hear these stories from the monks you lived with?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

What I imagine will happen is that in due time the media will catch wind of this and direct their attention to this outstanding issue. TB could easily end up with a reputation like the Catholic Church.

That is a distinct possibility. There are many that would react to that development with glee.

Oh well.

[Huseng]

No hanky panky among monks that you lived with then?

None that I was aware of.

Did you hear these stories from the monks you lived with?

No, from other sources. Regardless of whatever stories I've heard, we have Kalu Rinpoche testifying to sexual abuse, as well as Bhutan issuing condoms in monasteries to halt the spread of HIV there (HIV isn't likely introduced by young boys fooling around with each other). This is highly suggestive that what I've heard from multiple sources is in fact an issue that nobody wants to really address in public.

[Huseng]

I see this as dangerous and detrimental. If people sincerely believe their tradition is churning out realized beings yet boys in monasteries of that same tradition are regularly raped, well there's a huge contradiction that maybe nobody wants to address.

This actually goes beyond malicious gossip and now invites not only slander but also your own happy collusion in promoting such gossip. What is your purpose here, since you don't value the Tibetan tradition at all?

Malicious gossip would suggest my stated concerns are baseless, whereas I can point to the case of Kalu Rinpoche and Bhutan where this issue is now in the public sphere, plus what I've heard around India and Nepal from multiple sources.

Tibetans would call your a rudra. Not that it matters, but I suppose you're likely an everyday, ego-centric 20-something who mistakes cherry-picked book learning for greater wisdom and takes pleasure in his own wrong speech.

This is just ad hominem.

Did I hurt your feelings?

[rory]

Ven. Indrajala:

Have I heard stories? Yes, I have heard of sexual abuse and people (westerners) being told to keep quiet when they take issue with this and want to bring it to the light.

What I imagine will happen is that in due time the media will catch wind of this and direct their attention to this outstanding issue. TB could easily end up with a reputation like the Catholic Church.

And as I said I heard about child sex abuse in the '70's directly from a doctor friend who visited Tibetan monasteries in India. That along with the young Kalu Rinpoche and the Bhutanese monasteries is direct evidence; yes, it's happening and it was happening in the past.

And people here should be praising Ven Indrajala because he cares more about raped children then colluding to keep people's illusions.
gassho
Rory

[Sherab]

No hanky panky among monks that you lived with then?

None that I was aware of.

Did you hear these stories from the monks you lived with?

No, from other sources. Regardless of whatever stories I've heard, we have Kalu Rinpoche testifying to sexual abuse, as well as Bhutan issuing condoms in monasteries to halt the spread of HIV there (HIV isn't likely introduced by young boys fooling around with each other). This is highly suggestive that what I've heard from multiple sources is in fact an issue that nobody wants to really address in public.

From the way you write, you seem to be suggesting that the problem of sexual abuse of boys and other sexually deviant practices are rampant in most Tibetan monasteries across all lineages in Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal, India and the West. While I do not doubt that sexual abuses do occur, I am not sure that it is as extensive as you have implied by your posts and the Tibetan monastery (ies?) that you have stayed in appeared to be the exception to the rule. I would certainly hope that some academic could do an objective study of the problem and its extent.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

And people here should be praising Ven Indrajala because he cares more about raped children then colluding to keep people's illusions.

There are two different issues here. One is the issue of child sex abuse, how certain we are of it, and what to do about it.

The second issue is the idea of using that situation, plus making other criticisms (some of which are legitimate) and arriving at the conclusion that TB does not produce realized masters and has little worth. To which I say, a pristine lotus can grow out of a pond full of scum.

[Adi]

Malicious gossip would suggest my stated concerns are baseless, whereas I can point to the case of Kalu Rinpoche and Bhutan where this issue is now in the public sphere, plus what I've heard around India and Nepal from multiple sources.

"What I've heard" is central to the very definition of gossip, so at least you now understand that if you don't wish to admit it is the basis of your accusations.

This is just ad hominem.

No. It is all easily demonstrable from your own words so is not made up of irrelevant facts about you the person presenting the claim or argument. In fact who you are is central to what you do, unless, as your charming new avatar suggests, you are a Frankenstein-like creation of someone else.

Did I hurt your feelings?

Would that you could then you might actually have some votive utility. But to directly answer (a simple practice you might wish to employ), no.

The only thing I would like to see you answer honestly instead of repeatedly ignoring is the question posed before: What is your purpose here, since you don't value the Tibetan tradition at all?

Adi

[Huseng]

From the way you write, you seem to be suggesting that the problem of sexual abuse of boys and other sexually deviant practices are rampant in most Tibetan monasteries across all lineages in Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal, India and the West.

It certainly doesn't sound uncommon, which should be alarming to Buddhists.

If even an eminent public figure like Kalu Rinpoche isn't safe (and he has a voice and a following), then what about all the unknown boys who have neither title nor a voice or platform to tell their stories?

I would certainly hope that some academic could do an objective study of the problem and its extent.

I've heard of at least one or two people trying, but trying to do interviews and so on didn't prove possible.

[TocharianB]

Ven. Indrajala,

I think everyone admits that it's problematic that sordid things occur in monasteries, including Tibetan ones. Respectfully, however, I think you may have set up a false dilemma when you compared problems with Vajrayana practitioners and monotheistic theodicy. In the latter discourse, it's all or nothing: God is either beyond reproach or he's not God in the way Christian doctrine has traditionally conceived of him. In the Vajrayana, if someone is not directly one's teacher, one may regard him or her as having some degree of realization, but still subject to limitations. That people with yogic attainments fail to protect all beings under their care does not invalidate those attainments, only puts them in their samsaric context.

rory,

People object to Venerable's binary proposition concerning the relative worth of Tibetan Buddhism, its doctrines, and institutions, not to his concern for victims. I don't think that anyone aside from their closest students (and then, for reasons of efficacy) thinks that the Dalai Lama or the Karmapa or any other tulku are omniscient, culturally unconditioned superheroes; otherwise, would practitioners be able to admit that the 5th Dalai Lama wasn't entirely sure how to run his country or that he had qualms about some things he thought were necessary?

[Sherab]

It certainly doesn't sound uncommon, which should be alarming to Buddhists.

It certainly doesn't sound that common to me. Maybe the few Tibetan monasteries that I am aware of are like yours, exceptions to the (your?) rule. So I am a little skeptical.

Tibetan refugees' monasteries in India and Nepal tended to include a lot of Tibetan who became monks just to survive. A monastery that I know of seems to double up as an orphanage as well. Another monastery that I know of seems to be more like a school, the monks leaving after spending some years of education at the monastery. I am therefore not sure if the monasteries are true monasteries in the strict sense of the word.

Tibetan monasteries in China usually takes the form of houses built around a gonpa, and the monks of the monasteries live in those houses usually with members of their families. So the monasteries are more like little villages that grew around a gonpa. I don't hear stories of sexual abuses in these monasteries.

[rory]

Sherab;

From the way you write, you seem to be suggesting that the problem of sexual abuse of boys and other sexually deviant practices are rampant in most Tibetan monasteries across all lineages in Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal, India and the West. While I do not doubt that sexual abuses do occur, I am not sure that it is as extensive as you have implied by your posts and the Tibetan monastery (ies?) that you have stayed in appeared to be the exception to the rule. I would certainly hope that some academic could do an objective study of the problem and its extent.

I heard this kind of reasoning in Ireland at the time: "It's only the one place, that person making the accusations is unreliable, it's slandering the church."
Look at the reach and breadth of the sex abuse of boys by RC priests, in the US, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, etc...To think it happened the once or in 1 place is foolish since we have an example of a similar institution.

As for Ven. Indrajala committing slander; I'll gladly go with him to Avici Hell, hold his hand and Ksitigharba and Kannon will come for us.
gassho
Rory

[Huseng]

Venerable: Again, respectfully, I think your theodicy comparison is inapt. In theodicy, divine impotence or limitation is not an acceptable answer to the question you raise. Simply because spirits or siddhis may help in some situations does not necessarily mean that they are effective in all situations. Omnipotence and omnipresence are not criteria necessary for their existence.

I would hope benevolent spirits and siddhis would see the abuse of a kid like Kalu Rinpoche and put a stop to it.

Just sayin'.

[Sherab]

Sherab;

From the way you write, you seem to be suggesting that the problem of sexual abuse of boys and other sexually deviant practices are rampant in most Tibetan monasteries across all lineages in Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal, India and the West. While I do not doubt that sexual abuses do occur, I am not sure that it is as extensive as you have implied by your posts and the Tibetan monastery (ies?) that you have stayed in appeared to be the exception to the rule. I would certainly hope that some academic could do an objective study of the problem and its extent.

I heard this kind of reasoning in Ireland at the time: "It's only the one place, that person making the accusations is unreliable, it's slandering the church."
Look at the reach and breadth of the sex abuse of boys by RC priests, in the US, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, etc...To think it happened the once or in 1 place is foolish since we have an example of a similar institution.

As for Ven. Indrajala committing slander; I'll gladly go with him to Avici Hell, hold his hand and Ksitigharba and Kannon will come for us.
gassho
Rory

You projected your own idea onto my post. I am making the point that my perception is different from Ven. Indrajala's.

[rory]

What Ven. Indrajala and I are doing here is to try and wake people up and cast off their illusions. Because I assure you it will all come out sooner or later in a giant media circus. And many people here will loose their faith in Buddhism. I have tons of faith in the Dharma and have a strong devotional life but am not blinded to institutional wrongs whether it is Tibet or Japan or China etc... and teachers having afflictions.

Listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"it's all about power, money and control" (from the video above)

I'll tell you something, in Ireland I had a friend who attended a benedictine monastery school for the wealthy, as he told me proudly ' they wouldn't touch us' ; and who was touched: the poor boys at the schools.
so think about this, if the rich Kalu Rinpoche was abused, how is it for the poor boy monks, and they have nowhere to go.
gassho
Rory

[TocharianB]

What Ven. Indrajala and I are doing here is to try and wake people up and cast off their illusions. Because I assure you it will all come out sooner or later in a giant media circus. And many people here will loose their faith in Buddhism. I have tons of faith in the Dharma and have a strong devotional life but am not blinded to institutional wrongs whether it is Tibet or Japan or China etc... and teachers having afflictions.

I don't think anyone is upset by your and Venerable's admirable attempts to bring institutional corruption and abuse to light. I have no doubt this is a problem, and seems to be one wherever young boys are kept together in the manner of a boarding school or a monastery. Obviously, we must work to prevent predation wherever it occurs, and the only way to do that may well be to remove children from monasteries entirely.
People are disturbed by the conclusions that Ven. has drawn about the state of Tibetan Vajrayana in general, which I, for one, do not think follow from the evidence or any of the cited premises.

[Huseng]

In any case the reports of sexual abuse in Tibetan monasteries are accurate. It happens a lot.

Thank you.

[theanarchist]

I see this as dangerous and detrimental. If people sincerely believe their tradition is churning out realized beings yet boys in monasteries of that same tradition are regularly raped, well there's a huge contradiction that maybe nobody wants to address.

This actually goes beyond malicious gossip and now invites not only slander but also your own happy collusion in promoting such gossip. What is your purpose here, since you don't value the Tibetan tradition at all?

Malicious gossip would suggest my stated concerns are baseless, whereas I can point to the case of Kalu Rinpoche and Bhutan where this issue is now in the public sphere, plus what I've heard around India and Nepal from multiple sources.

It is indeed malicious gossip to single out and slander Tibetan buddhism as the main tradition where abuse occurs in monastic or educational institutions.

Because I am fairly certain you will find similar sex and abuse excesses in these types of institutions of all traditions all over the world, monastic or not, religious or not. Because this is a human problem, not a Tibetan or tantric Buddhism problem.