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Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:10 pm
by tlee
You're in the USA right?
Why pray when you can protest?
It's your tax money that's paying for this and all the other wars fought for Israel.
Take back control of your country.

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:57 am
by Sherab
The most effective prayer is to pray that the people there have enough intelligence and courage not to be taken in by their Islamic leaders.

Most religions have more nominal adherents than true adherents. The problem with Islam is that it is particularly easy for a nominal adherent to be radicalized. All that a Muslim cleric has to do is to tell a nominal adherent that it is their duty to bring all non-Muslims into the religion, even through violent means.

"The renowned Muslim historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) clearly articulates this division:
In the Muslim community, jihad is a religious duty because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the jihad was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense. But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations."
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nominal adherents can be easily persuaded to sacrifice themselves literally for the religion because the teachings itself makes it very easy for that to happen.

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:24 am
by Nemo
Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:14 am
by Sherab
Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.
If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:20 am
by Mkoll
tlee wrote:You're in the USA right?
Why pray when you can protest?
It's your tax money that's paying for this and all the other wars fought for Israel.
Take back control of your country.
Are you suggesting we not pay our taxes?

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:19 am
by Nemo
In the occupied territories Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. That is a false flag operation. After 60 years of oppression the Palestinians are radicalized. If you don't redress their legitimate grievances they will not give up. They have offered peace for decades despite Israel's lies. Israel always poisons the deal. "Recognizing Israel" includes forgoing all legal title or payment for your stolen land and Israel has the right to intervene militarily in the Palestian territories during the truce. Who would agree to a peace like that? Stop believing the lies in the media and get informed. Listen to Chomsky and get some real information.

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:26 am
by Grigoris
Sherab wrote:
Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.
If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.
So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:32 am
by Sönam
Nemo wrote:In the occupied territories Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. That is a false flag operation. After 60 years of oppression the Palestinians are radicalized. If you don't redress their legitimate grievances they will not give up. They have offered peace for decades despite Israel's lies. Israel always poisons the deal. "Recognizing Israel" includes forgoing all legal title or payment for your stolen land and Israel has the right to intervene militarily in the Palestian territories during the truce. Who would agree to a peace like that? Stop believing the lies in the media and get informed. Listen to Chomsky and get some real information.
This is a very short term view ... Yes, Palestinian were radical from start, they wanted to trough all "jews" to the sea. After having sold, piece by piece, some desert land that kibbutzin did transform in oasis full of water, fruits and vegetables, they are pretending to have it back. It's time that those who speak loud in the name of justice start to learn what really happen in this part of the world, since 60 years and more.
Those who runned Israel at the beginnin were all left, socialits orented, they wanted to share and make some kind of paradise. After years of villainy from arabian around, we have now a right (extrem) government. It's time to relativize ... and make a new start from all.
And don't expect I start a discussion about!

Sönam

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:34 am
by Sönam
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.
If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.
So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?
Precisely that ... like in many other parts of the world. Islam is a very ... specific religion.

Sönam

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:57 am
by Grigoris
Sönam wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?
Precisely that ... like in many other parts of the world. Islam is a very ... specific religion.

Sönam
So why was there no Palestinian problem before the illegal occupation (starting with the British in 1920), given that Palestinians were Muslims then too? Why was there no lasting peace agreement with the PLO which was a secular organisation?

I'll tell you why: because it has nothing to do with Islam.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:06 am
by Jesse
tlee wrote:You're in the USA right?
Why pray when you can protest?
It's your tax money that's paying for this and all the other wars fought for Israel.
Take back control of your country.
This is what happens when we protest now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/fe ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


phpBB [video]

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:23 am
by Sherab
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.
If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.
So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?
In the article that I posted (assuming that you have read it), it was basically making the point that no resolution is possible because the Islamic teachings create the conditions which make any form of compromise that is needed for a resolution impossible. In other words, the solution must be in accordance with Islam. Anything short of that will not work.

In brief, while it is possible to say that the cause of the Palestinian conflict may not be attributable to Islam (although my personal opinion is that it is one of the causes), Islam makes it impossible to resolve the conflict as long as the resolution plan allows the Jihadists to make the claim that the resolution is not in accord with Islam. The points raised in the article indicates that it is very easy to the Jihadists to do that.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:30 am
by Ayu
Jesse wrote:
tlee wrote:You're in the USA right?
Why pray when you can protest?
It's your tax money that's paying for this and all the other wars fought for Israel.
Take back control of your country.
This is what happens when we protest now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/fe ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Dictator - Democracy Speech

phpBB [video]


There is much truth in this joke. He says what "is not possible in democracy" but in fact all these things are done in the so-called democracy.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:27 pm
by Jesse
Ayu wrote:
Jesse wrote:
tlee wrote:You're in the USA right?
Why pray when you can protest?
It's your tax money that's paying for this and all the other wars fought for Israel.
Take back control of your country.
This is what happens when we protest now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/fe ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Dictator - Democracy Speech

There is much truth in this joke. He says what "is not possible in democracy" but in fact all these things are done in the so-called democracy.
Yea, it's pretty scary really. I feel really bad for the younger generations, the next 2-3 generations are the ones who will have it bad. We don't live in a police state, but they will.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:56 pm
by Sherab
In a democracy, you get to choose your own religion.

Re: Sending prayers to all those suffering in Gaza at the mo

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:22 pm
by Grigoris
Sherab wrote:In the article that I posted (assuming that you have read it), it was basically making the point that no resolution is possible because the Islamic teachings create the conditions which make any form of compromise that is needed for a resolution impossible. In other words, the solution must be in accordance with Islam. Anything short of that will not work.

In brief, while it is possible to say that the cause of the Palestinian conflict may not be attributable to Islam (although my personal opinion is that it is one of the causes), Islam makes it impossible to resolve the conflict as long as the resolution plan allows the Jihadists to make the claim that the resolution is not in accord with Islam. The points raised in the article indicates that it is very easy to the Jihadists to do that.
1. Not all Muslims are Jihadists. As a matter of fact the vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. 2. You avoided answering the second part of my question: Why was there no lasting peace agreement with the PLO, which was a secular organisation?

I'll tell you why: because it has nothing to do with Islam.

Just like the original 1920 occupation of Palestine had nothing to do with Islam, so the current situation has nothing to do with Islam.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:30 pm
by Nemo
It's scary how well Israel has carried out the "big lie" and completely distorted their culpability in the conflict. A bunch of Europeans came to Palestine claiming it was their land. Once established they took all the property of it's actual historical residents. Some Palestinians still have the deeds to their farms and homes. One day Israeli's knocked on the door and they had to leave for the world's largest outdoor prison. As the decades passed they became militant. They tried diplomacy but Israel countered with endless lies about ethnic destiny and poisoned chalice peace deals. Now they are the majority in the country no longer feel they have to accept the current oppression. They will not back down until their legitimate issues are redressed and Israel will cave or lose support of America. Israel without America is toast IMO.

This ends one of two ways. Peace deal or genocide.
Chomsky on the issue to counterbalance all the bullshit.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/11/n ... ds_and_how" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:41 pm
by DNS
Ayu wrote: The Dictator - Democracy Speech

There is much truth in this joke. He says what "is not possible in democracy" but in fact all these things are done in the so-called democracy.
The audio in the video was really bad. I found a transcript here:
http://lybio.net/sacha-baron-cohen-the- ... eech/film/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:09 pm
by DNS
If we want to discuss history and who's to blame, there is lots of blame to go around:

Israel: the occupation, second-class treatment of Palestinians, taking their homes in 1948, bulldozing their homes, missile attacks

Palestinians: refusing to accept the 1947 UN partition plan while the Jews accepted it, suicide bus attacks and others, missile attacks

The other Arab nations: not helping the Palestinians, not giving the Palestinians their land when they had full control and power of all Palestinian lands pre-1967 (West Bank, Gaza strip, and Golan Heights all owned and controlled by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria from 1947-1967. The Arab nations could have set-up an independent Palestinian nation during this time, but didn't).

The U.S.: for one-sided foreign policy and taking too many decades before finally recognizing that Palestinians should have an independent nation.

Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:31 pm
by Ayu
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ayu wrote: The Dictator - Democracy Speech

There is much truth in this joke. He says what "is not possible in democracy" but in fact all these things are done in the so-called democracy.
The audio in the video was really bad. I found a transcript here:
http://lybio.net/sacha-baron-cohen-the- ... eech/film/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you. I couldn't check it out here in English.