Last judgement

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gloriasteinem
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Last judgement

Post by gloriasteinem » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:50 pm

I think for some reason Buddhist and yoga practitioners has this preposition that such future event is unlikely to concern them or their actions. Somehow they feel very secure in their practice even if they try to escape or diminish the rules of the Eightfold path about the right conduct, speech etc. about talking truth and properly, etc. why some Buddhists feel they are not a subject of judgement if in Christianity is clearly stated that everyone alive or even among the dead will be judged according to his/her deeds. And be put among the righteous or among sinners and send to hell. Of course there is Naraka in Buddhism, I have read here a lot about calming the mind, understanding the reality but I haven't seen much worry on action less mentioning of the Eightfold path, it seems to me ppl think enlightenment comes as a conclusion of the mind and not as a result of many lives of good deeds that we know Buddha was before attaining Nirvana
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smcj
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Re: Last judgement

Post by smcj » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:58 pm

You need not worry about such things. Pray to the Kwan Yin at the bottom of your post. She will know how to handle it. :namaste:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

gloriasteinem
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Re: Last judgement

Post by gloriasteinem » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:22 pm

Hi smcj,

Thank you for your compliment in the deleted topic, I read it. I really searched for a delightful image of Guan Yin for my signature. Indeed I pray to Avalokitesvara a lot. I feel bodhisattva vows very near to my heart I just wish ppl to think more on the right action because it's good to feel caring, bright and nice people around you and of course I wish that they are more and less the confused ones; I will be less anxious than.
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Re: Last judgement

Post by smcj » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:40 pm

I really searched for a delightful image of Guan Yin for my signature. Indeed I pray to Avalokitesvara a lot.
I have a deep fondness for Guan Yin even though she's not part of my practice. I think I feel the most for her of any deity. I read Bloefeld's "Bodhisattva of Compassion" and it flavored my understanding of her, and all deities really. She's the same deity as Avalokitesvara since the share the same mantra, but I am moved when I see her image in a way that I'm not when I see his. That's a little karmically odd since I practice Tibetan style and she's not part of it.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Last judgement

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:19 pm

:good: - I feel the same way - :smile:

Getting back to the OP:
The idea of judgement by some divine being, and especially a "last" judgement, is a Christian one and it doesn't make sense to Buddhists because we believe there is no creator-god with total power over us.
Instead, we are responsible for our own actions and the only 'judgement' is that we have to live with the consequences of what we do. Call the consequences 'karma' if you like but the concept is simply that if we do good things, good things will happen to us - and if we don't, they won't.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Last judgement

Post by smcj » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:16 pm

My education in Dharma says the only thing that is "final" is liberation, and the Buddhas do not judge. There is no criticism or finding fault whatsoever from their side. I think of all the deities this aspect is perhaps most pronounced in Guan Yin--unconditional love. Maybe that's why I like her so.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

gloriasteinem
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Re: Last judgement

Post by gloriasteinem » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:02 pm

Namaste. I am sorry I think great compassion comes only after the understanding of justice and rule of law that is enforced by judgement that has the meaning of restraining offenders from society and thus removing the harm they do, with that I stand very much close to the a Western tradition. Besides I think you could understand compassion only after understanding the need of justice, that's my personal experience. Of course I do too mistakes and I am learning how to not do them that doesn't mean I want to be irresponsible.
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Adamantine
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Re: Last judgement

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:29 pm

gloriasteinem wrote:Namaste. I am sorry I think great compassion comes only after the understanding of justice and rule of law that is enforced by judgement that has the meaning of restraining offenders from society and thus removing the harm they do, with that I stand very much close to the a Western tradition. Besides I think you could understand compassion only after understanding the need of justice, that's my personal experience. Of course I do too mistakes and I am learning how to not do them that doesn't mean I want to be irresponsible.

In dharma, the relative results of one's actions -positive or negative- depend on many
factors including inner motivation, action itself, successful result or lack thereof, etc.,
And these results are part of a natural law we label "karma". There's no outer judge perse, although
there is potentially an appearance of a judge in the form of The Lord of Death...which you'll find in many
different accounts of the death process.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Last judgement

Post by uan » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:56 pm

There are a couple ways to think about Christianity. In one sense, its cosmology is as fantastical (not real) as Jedi Knights and the Force, or something out of the Lord of the Rings. It may have Richard Dawkins (I'm not sure), who said everyone's an atheist except for the one religion they believe in. He just has decided to go one step further and not believe in a final one. So if you're a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or Muslim, or whatever you believe, then Christianity has no basis.

On the other hand, if Christianity turns out to be true, then for those who are not Christian, from my limited understanding of Christian theology, a person will be judged by their own standards of judging. For example, if a person is a legalist, demanding that folks need to follow all the rules, etc., then that person would be judged by how well they followed the rules. For a Buddhist, this could take the form of practitioners who judge other Buddhist by how well they keep the precepts, or do this or do that. On judgment day, that person would be judged themselves by how well they did those same things, etc.

Personally, I wouldn't worry if there was or wasn't a God or a Last Judgment. Best to focus on your own practice.

As an aside, I'd count myself among those with an affinity for Guan Yin as well.

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Re: Last judgement

Post by Azramin » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:03 pm

I think one of the most interesting texts I’ve read on Last Judgement is within the “Four Agreements” by Don Miguel Ruiz.

The four agreements are, “Be impeccable with your word” - not dissimilar to Right Speech. “Don’t take anything personally” - Kind of aligns with Right view. “Don’t make assumptions” - Kind of aligns with Right intention. “Always do your best” - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick.

At the very core of Toltec wisdom as described by Ruiz is the opposite principal to Christianity and Islam. That is, by default you aren’t sinful in nature but perfect in nature. This aligns with the Buddhist concept that we all possess Buddha nature, but are ignorant of our true Buddha nature. Returning to Toltec wisdom, your imperfection is induced by cultural traditions. On this basis the last judgement refers to the last judgement you pass upon yourself.
To a certain extent, this is akin to a kind of enlightenment where you realise the true nature of your being, an ever changing, impermanent potentiality that is all that it should be in any given moment.

The thing I would meditate upon if judgement troubles you is this.

Unconditional love is incompatible with any kind of judgement. It is by it’s very nature accepting. Unconditionally accepting. This is the first paradox you should come to terms with.

The second paradox in my view is that of a programmer writing a faulty program, blaming the program for it’s faults, and expecting that program to redeem itself for something it arguably had no control over. It could reasonably assert, “why did you create me to fail because of my flaws in the first place!" Essentially this is the premise of Genesis and Revelations.

Bringing all this back to Buddhist thought, the principal of emptiness to my mind explains why Buddhists have no thought toward judgement, in my view.

From our ignorant perspective, not knowing, seeing or completely understanding ultimate reality, we assign good and bad to objects and events. In reality (as I understand it) no one thing has any attribute in and of itself. Therefore, any given event or action is not good or bad in and of itself.

In the far greater scheme of things, taking an almost omnipotent perspective, even things we consider bad from our singular individual perspective is not in and of itself bad. I’ll pick a controversial example such as war.
At face value, war causes much suffering. It is however a consequence of karma, and collectively, those adversely affected, or entangled within a war arguably have been involved in some direct or indirect way with the karmic actions that caused an effect. Remember we are at a minimum collectively humanity. As much as we’d like to be separate and isolated from humanity as an individual, we’re not. No more than an arm is separate from a body. It’s all well and good for your arm to suffer injury in an accident and bemoan the fact it had nothing to do with the accident. None the less, it is one with the body suffering consequences of the body, just as we singular with humanity.

On balance, I would suggest that as much good comes of wars as bad. That is to say, at face value as tragic and devastating as wars are, they can lead to good things. Any given individual could have suffered immensely as a consequence of war, but in so doing come to truly understand compassion, and as a result, performed many great and selfless deeds for others, and perhaps even helped them on their way to enlightenment.

How this relates to judgement is this. There are innumerable times when you effect a good in the world by simply being, totally oblivious to the good you might have caused. We are only aware of the “good” and “bad” we’re mindful of. Your perceived bad compared to your immense good might be insignificant.

Based on this omnipotent perspective, any kind of judgement is somewhat irrelevant.

Should you be judged on intent alone, or merely actions. 99% of the time, even at our most selfish we only ever have good intent. Either good intent for ourselves or good intent for others.
As flawed and destructive as Hitler’s ideals were, he genuinely thought he was doing the world a favour through his ethnic cleansing. He thought he was doing good. When you examine many atrocities in the world, at the core somebody is convinced they’re doing the right thing. Doing a good thing. Take for example the behaviour of the U.S.A. and the western world protecting democracy and their way of life. Was anything that happened as part of the hostiles in the Middle East just?

Judgement from our limited perspective is a very speculative thing indeed. Realistically the only true judge is ourselves, and we’ve been conditioned to judge ourselves extremely harshly. The majority of our judgements are irrational based on self delusion.

If judgement troubles you, please meditate on these thoughts. Start with compassion for yourself, then you will comprehend compassion for others.
Truth doesn't require belief in order to be true. Only untruth relies on faith to survive.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Last judgement

Post by Kim O'Hara » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:28 pm

I think you make things unnecessarily complicated, Azramin.
Why do you need the bits you have taken from a new-agey teacher who has created a system from a mish-mash of other traditions, since you already have their (better) Buddhist equivalents?
Why say "we can't know" and then present hypothetical arguments?
All you end up doing is blurring everything together so that none of it is entirely wrong but none of it is really right, either.
:shrug:
Keep it simple: if we do the best we can with what comes our way, our life will be better than if we don't. And at its end, no Big Daddy will wag his finger and say, "You haven't tried hard enough. Go to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200," because Big Daddy doesn't exist.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Last judgement

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:39 pm

Azramin wrote:I think one of the most interesting texts I’ve read on Last Judgement is within the “Four Agreements” by Don Miguel Ruiz.

The four agreements are, “Be impeccable with your word” - not dissimilar to Right Speech. “Don’t take anything personally” - Kind of aligns with Right view. “Don’t make assumptions” - Kind of aligns with Right intention. “Always do your best” - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick.

At the very core of Toltec wisdom as described by Ruiz is the opposite principal to Christianity and Islam. That is, by default you aren’t sinful in nature but perfect in nature. This aligns with the Buddhist concept that we all possess Buddha nature, but are ignorant of our true Buddha nature. Returning to Toltec wisdom, your imperfection is induced by cultural traditions. On this basis the last judgement refers to the last judgement you pass upon yourself.
To a certain extent, this is akin to a kind of enlightenment where you realise the true nature of your being, an ever changing, impermanent potentiality that is all that it should be in any given moment.

The thing I would meditate upon if judgement troubles you is this.

Unconditional love is incompatible with any kind of judgement. It is by it’s very nature accepting. Unconditionally accepting. This is the first paradox you should come to terms with.

The second paradox in my view is that of a programmer writing a faulty program, blaming the program for it’s faults, and expecting that program to redeem itself for something it arguably had no control over. It could reasonably assert, “why did you create me to fail because of my flaws in the first place!" Essentially this is the premise of Genesis and Revelations.

Bringing all this back to Buddhist thought, the principal of emptiness to my mind explains why Buddhists have no thought toward judgement, in my view.

From our ignorant perspective, not knowing, seeing or completely understanding ultimate reality, we assign good and bad to objects and events. In reality (as I understand it) no one thing has any attribute in and of itself. Therefore, any given event or action is not good or bad in and of itself.

In the far greater scheme of things, taking an almost omnipotent perspective, even things we consider bad from our singular individual perspective is not in and of itself bad. I’ll pick a controversial example such as war.
At face value, war causes much suffering. It is however a consequence of karma, and collectively, those adversely affected, or entangled within a war arguably have been involved in some direct or indirect way with the karmic actions that caused an effect. Remember we are at a minimum collectively humanity. As much as we’d like to be separate and isolated from humanity as an individual, we’re not. No more than an arm is separate from a body. It’s all well and good for your arm to suffer injury in an accident and bemoan the fact it had nothing to do with the accident. None the less, it is one with the body suffering consequences of the body, just as we singular with humanity.

On balance, I would suggest that as much good comes of wars as bad. That is to say, at face value as tragic and devastating as wars are, they can lead to good things. Any given individual could have suffered immensely as a consequence of war, but in so doing come to truly understand compassion, and as a result, performed many great and selfless deeds for others, and perhaps even helped them on their way to enlightenment.

How this relates to judgement is this. There are innumerable times when you effect a good in the world by simply being, totally oblivious to the good you might have caused. We are only aware of the “good” and “bad” we’re mindful of. Your perceived bad compared to your immense good might be insignificant.

Based on this omnipotent perspective, any kind of judgement is somewhat irrelevant.

Should you be judged on intent alone, or merely actions. 99% of the time, even at our most selfish we only ever have good intent. Either good intent for ourselves or good intent for others.
As flawed and destructive as Hitler’s ideals were, he genuinely thought he was doing the world a favour through his ethnic cleansing. He thought he was doing good. When you examine many atrocities in the world, at the core somebody is convinced they’re doing the right thing. Doing a good thing. Take for example the behaviour of the U.S.A. and the western world protecting democracy and their way of life. Was anything that happened as part of the hostiles in the Middle East just?

Judgement from our limited perspective is a very speculative thing indeed. Realistically the only true judge is ourselves, and we’ve been conditioned to judge ourselves extremely harshly. The majority of our judgements are irrational based on self delusion.

If judgement troubles you, please meditate on these thoughts. Start with compassion for yourself, then you will comprehend compassion for others.
Buddhadharma has nothing at all to say about ' unconditional love '...beyond the fact that it is a concept at odds with some basic Buddhist concepts.
Note, there is no suggestion here that compassion and loving kindness are anything other than vital to the actualisation of Dharma...but that is not to posit an ideal based on the existence of a unchanging entity with fixed qualities..no matter how lofty the concepts around that might be.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

gloriasteinem
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Re: Last judgement

Post by gloriasteinem » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:33 pm

Azramin wrote: Unconditional love

omnipotent perspective
Hi, look, your post was very long so I will pick up only 2 things to comment in my own... understanding.

First, I really think other ppl are more capable of unconditional love than me and I am glad about it because I need love very much, I mean it's never been a sicret that I lack such from childhood and later on, I will not go in detail but to say emotional disappointments. That didn't stop love inside of me I just turned more to thinking and not feelings that would otherwise be too hurt. Therefore I rather understand omniscience, that's the second point. I don't understand omnipotence lol. I could translate that to 'I understand a lot but that does not mean I could do much'

About love and compassion I think compassion is a specific form of love, with the understanding of suffering and the hope it would be removed in sentient being advancement. Of that I am much capable of. My be I am too judgemental some times and yes one must have peace in mind and affections to have a compassionate love with understanding. However I really dislike the wrongness of some people in politics esp. in Russia that May interfere with right development and advancement, that I think it stops it or hinders it, with that I don't agree and feel judgement or at least staying away is important. I only wish these hindrances are removed, gone or prohibited and thus be left to my compassionate feelings. The unconditional love is something I at times forget or even don't know if there is, it's a good thing to feel, after all the inner peace gives us the understanding that things are and gonna be ok.
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gloriasteinem
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Re: Last judgement

Post by gloriasteinem » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:02 pm

Also you have a bit confused understanding about connectivity. Being connected to good ppl is undoubtfully beneficial for you
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Re: Last judgement

Post by Azramin » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:23 pm

Kim wrote:I think you make things unnecessarily complicated, Azramin.
Perhaps so Kim. Sometimes parallel references help, other times they don't. I appreciate that what I perceived to be illustrative information around the OPs question on Christian theology only served to confuse others. I'm sorry that's turned out to be the case.
gloria wrote:Also you have a bit confused understanding about connectivity.
Very possibly. If there is any single concept within Buddhism that makes the most amount of sense to me based on everything I've realised about the nature of self and reality, it would be the principal of emptiness.

To quote a convenient source
http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatistheself/a/Sunyata-Or-Emptiness.htm wrote: We also are empty of self-essence. However, if we don't perceive this, we understand ourselves to be distinctive and separate from everything else. This gives rise to fear, greed, jealousy, prejudice, hatred. If we understand ourselves to inter-exist with everything else, this gives rise to trust and compassion.
Contemplating this with a basic understanding of quantum theory, in that existence is predominately energy soup freely exchanging electrons on a constant basis, gives rise to the reflection of connectivity I eluded to. In a broader context, are you not an interdependent element of humanity? Are you not an interdependent element of all the species on earth etc?

It's entirely possible my understanding is incomplete or I have an incorrect perspective of this principal.
Truth doesn't require belief in order to be true. Only untruth relies on faith to survive.

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Mkoll
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Re: Last judgement

Post by Mkoll » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:42 pm

:offtopic:
Kim O'Hara wrote:And at its end, no Big Daddy will wag his finger and say, "You haven't tried hard enough. Go to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200," because Big Daddy doesn't exist.
That one doesn't, but this one does! And it looks like he's wagging his fist!

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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Last judgement

Post by uan » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:43 pm

Simon E. wrote: Buddhadharma has nothing at all to say about ' unconditional love '...beyond the fact that it is a concept at odds with some basic Buddhist concepts.
Note, there is no suggestion here that compassion and loving kindness are anything other than vital to the actualisation of Dharma...but that is not to posit an ideal based on the existence of a unchanging entity with fixed qualities..no matter how lofty the concepts around that might be.

Depends on the definition of love I imagine, and how pedantic we want to be:
Attachment and love are similar in that both of them draw us to the other person. But in fact, these two emotions are quite different. When we’re attached we’re drawn to someone because he or she meets our needs. In addition, there are lots of strings attached to our affection that we may or may not realize are there. For example, I “love” you because you make me feel good. I “love” you as long as you do things that I approve of. I “love” you because you’re mine. You’re my spouse or my child or my parent or my friend. With attachment, we go up and down like a yo-yo, depending on how the other person treats us. We obsess, “What do they think of me? Do they love me? Have I offended them? How can I become what they want me to be so that they love me even more?” It’s not very peaceful, is it? We’re definitely stirred up.

On the other hand, the love we’re generating on the Dharma path is unconditional. We simply want other to have happiness and the causes of happiness without any strings attached, without any expectations of what these people will do for us or how good they’ll make us feel.

Don’t Believe Everything You Think: Living with Wisdom and Compassion by Thubten Chodron, pages 11–12

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Re: Last judgement

Post by uan » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:46 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote: And at its end, no Big Daddy will wag his finger and say, "You haven't tried hard enough. Go to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200," because Big Daddy doesn't exist.

:namaste:
Kim
That is probably true for some sects of Christianity but definitely not all. Many believe one is saved entirely through grace -- it doesn't matter how hard one tries or not.

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Re: Last judgement

Post by Sherab » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:10 pm

uan wrote:That is probably true for some sects of Christianity but definitely not all. Many believe one is saved entirely through grace -- it doesn't matter how hard one tries or not.
Ah, but many do not know that they are made to suffer entirely through grace as well. Personally, I'd rather be "graceless".

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Re: Last judgement

Post by uan » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:01 am

Sherab wrote:
uan wrote:That is probably true for some sects of Christianity but definitely not all. Many believe one is saved entirely through grace -- it doesn't matter how hard one tries or not.
Ah, but many do not know that they are made to suffer entirely through grace as well. Personally, I'd rather be "graceless".
Suffer in what sense? Being saved by grace means that you will be allowed into the "kingdom of Heaven" no matter what (rather than some big daddy telling you you didn't do enough, and you're now going to hell for eternity etc...).

Being saved by grace doesn't mean your life in the here and now becomes carefree, or that one doesn't have bad things happen to them. There's a correlation of sorts to the person who truly believes, in a Christian sense, and a person who has a deep understanding of Buddhism. Suffering is really all a state of mind or all in our minds.

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