May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity...

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Shadok
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May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity...

Post by Shadok » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:35 pm

for the same reason discussion about Shugden was banned. The debate is getting very heated. It will only contribute to creation of bad karma, to fellow sanghas. It will not help educate anyone, people have made up their mind. It is only causing disharmony among Sanghas. Otherwise this forum will become nothing more than place to promote political/government propaganda.

Just don't want fellow sanghas to ruin their spiritual progress. You ordained sanghas need to become Buddhas soon, so that you can free all of us from this samsara.

Shadok

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Boomerang
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Boomerang » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:07 am

I don't think this would be a good idea. It would send a negative message to the world at large about what the forums stands for; it amounts to saying that queer Buddhists are of no consequence, so we'll just suppress their voices for our convenience. There are queer people who are Buddhists, like me, and it's valuable for them to be able to talk about the significance or non-significance that their sexual orientation has in Buddhism. If a person is coming from a family or community that regularly uses Christian scriptures to justify homophobia, it's beneficial for them to be able to ask questions about Buddhism and homosexuality and homophobia. It's also valuable for straight people to discuss these things, particularly if they have problems with aversion. I've benefited from reading old discussions about homosexuality on this forum.

Disagreements can arise about any political topic, so unless the forum bans all politics there are going to be situations in which people get fired up and slip into habits of wrong speech.
Last edited by Boomerang on Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:02 am, edited 17 times in total.

Rakz
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Rakz » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:08 am

I agree 100%

It's getting tiresome as f...

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Malcolm
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:43 am

Shadok wrote:for the same reason discussion about Shugden was banned. The debate is getting very heated. It will only contribute to creation of bad karma, to fellow sanghas. It will not help educate anyone, people have made up their mind. It is only causing disharmony among Sanghas. Otherwise this forum will become nothing more than place to promote political/government propaganda.
I don't see how. People are capable of having reasoned discussions about this issue. I don't really see much public disagreement on this issue apart from a couple of "conservatives" who are voicing their opinion, a day late and a dollar short.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Jesse » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:50 am

Eventually it will be no issue at all. People are just still dealing with their own insecurities and silly belief systems.

Human beings come in all sorts. People need to just accept it and deal with their own internal demons, which is the source of any strife thst arises anyway.

I say keep discussion open.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

plwk
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by plwk » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:11 am

Here's my worthless opinions...
It will not help educate anyone, people have made up their mind.
But there are others who may wish to be educated and access both sides of the debate.

For those who 'have made up their minds', either way...
One: There's no compulsion to read topics that's not conducive to one's interests or beliefs. So, don't. If one still goes ahead, enter at own risk.
Two: Dharma Wheel has the facility of placing users who are not conducive to one's own interests or beliefs on the ignore function from the user control panel section.
Three: One can even use the report function in the thread itself to report to the Admin/Mods on the user and/or the user's reply


Try it. It works...

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rory
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by rory » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:21 am

I know it's very important being gay to discuss such issues, share such issues. It's not about the feelings of straight people at all.

Plenty of my friends have been wounded by their religion and turn to Buddhism. I've been to Chinese temples, Japanese sects where I've had to navigate being gay. It's not easy, and being able to share such struggles with fellow Buddhists is important. I've counselled a Chinese buddhist acquaintance over her guilt and defying family expectations because she's gay. I remember being sent a link by Indrajala about the first gay wedding in Taiwan. That was so inspiring.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/13/world/asi ... x-wedding/

My acquaintance returned to Asia and is living happily as an out gay woman, involved with her community. She's a devout Buddhist.
Sharing such things is of immense help.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Ayu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:24 am

rory wrote:I know it's very important being gay to discuss such issues, share such issues. It's not about the feelings of straight people at all.

Plenty of my friends have been wounded by their religion and turn to Buddhism. I've been to Chinese temples, Japanese sects where I've had to navigate being gay. It's not easy, and being able to share such struggles with fellow Buddhists is important. ...
I agree completely.
Whoever dislikes such topics and doesn't want to see them: i.g.n.o.r.e! No Problem.
Whoever wants to use such topic for to disturb and to troll, will do that on another topic either. Such behavior is not because of the topic but because of the willingness and the inner urge to have hot discussions. In the recent gay marriage topic there where also conservative voices who were able to express their doubts in a peaceful way.
The topic itself is not the source of flamewars, IMO.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Simon E.
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:19 am

if it wasn't about the feelings of straight people at all the thread wouldn't exist..would it ?
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Ayu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:38 am

Simon E. wrote:if it wasn't about the feelings of straight people at all the thread wouldn't exist..would it ?
Yes, it would. Rory was talking about her issues as gay and that's why she didn't want the topic "Homosexuality" to be banned.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Simon E.
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:46 am

Sorry, you've lost me there.... :shrug:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Dan74 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:59 am

Shadok wrote:for the same reason discussion about Shugden was banned. The debate is getting very heated. It will only contribute to creation of bad karma, to fellow sanghas. It will not help educate anyone, people have made up their mind. It is only causing disharmony among Sanghas. Otherwise this forum will become nothing more than place to promote political/government propaganda.

Just don't want fellow sanghas to ruin their spiritual progress. You ordained sanghas need to become Buddhas soon, so that you can free all of us from this samsara.

Shadok
I appreciate the intention to save fellow practitioners from accruing negative karma by rancour and ill-will, but I don't think this is the answer. We can't go banning every topic that gets people hot under the collar. Rather, IMO, we can (and should) all remind ourselves that when we get angry and frustrated, it's time to turn the attention inwards and examine our own investment in the issues, our attachments and develop the clarity to see these kleshas arise and cut them off before they manifest outwardly. It also helps me recall that we are all doing the best we can, that we all suffer from ignorance and delusion and share this samsara, so that we can either work together or against one another.

_/|\_

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Ayu » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:02 am

Simon E. wrote:Sorry, you've lost me there.... :shrug:
Well, I'm sorry, I thought you were missing the point.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:37 pm

I agree, but in a different way.

It's somewhat interesting to talk about gay marriage and bore into topics such as social fabric, family, freedom. Good times. It's awful abstract, which is why I posted what I did in my own post on the subject-- how gay marriage impacts this straight married guy and how it makes my marriage more meaningful.

I'd really like to hear from gay and trans Buddhists on how gay marriage impacts them. How does that impact their lives, their relationships, their practice. How their practice has informed and supported them as our society has made this evolution. How has being gay impacted you in your sanghas.

I'd also like to hear the same from straight Buddhista, but in particular those who don't approve of homosexuality. How do gay people impact your lives? How does having them in your sangha impact your spiritual life?

The theoretical is beat to death, but this personal aspect hasn't.

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Jim1 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:58 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I agree, but in a different way.

It's somewhat interesting to talk about gay marriage and bore into topics such as social fabric, family, freedom. Good times. It's awful abstract, which is why I posted what I did in my own post on the subject-- how gay marriage impacts this straight married guy and how it makes my marriage more meaningful.

I'd really like to hear from gay and trans Buddhists on how gay marriage impacts them. How does that impact their lives, their relationships, their practice. How their practice has informed and supported them as our society has made this evolution. How has being gay impacted you in your sanghas.

I'd also like to hear the same from straight Buddhista, but in particular those who don't approve of homosexuality. How do gay people impact your lives? How does having them in your sangha impact your spiritual life?

The theoretical is beat to death, but this personal aspect hasn't.
I agree that those questions could lead to a meaningful discussion.

"People have made up their mind"
Isn't a big part of Buddhism being open minded about things.. like continually asking ourselves, "am I sure?"
"He who walks in the eightfold noble path with unswerving determination is sure to reach Nirvana." Buddha

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by DGA » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:06 am

Jim1 wrote:"People have made up their mind"
Isn't a big part of Buddhism being open minded about things.. like continually asking ourselves, "am I sure?"
Bingo.

Another important aspect of Buddhist practice is being willing to listen to the sufferings of others. As I've been taught, this is one fundamental meaning of compassion: to recognize that others are suffering, to take their word for it, and not to diminish or dismiss their suffering as irrelevant or immoral or marginal or whatever.

This includes the suffering of all members of the Sangha, and all members of society.

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:26 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I agree, but in a different way.

It's somewhat interesting to talk about gay marriage and bore into topics such as social fabric, family, freedom. Good times. It's awful abstract, which is why I posted what I did in my own post on the subject-- how gay marriage impacts this straight married guy and how it makes my marriage more meaningful.

I'd really like to hear from gay and trans Buddhists on how gay marriage impacts them. How does that impact their lives, their relationships, their practice. How their practice has informed and supported them as our society has made this evolution. How has being gay impacted you in your sanghas.

I'd also like to hear the same from straight Buddhista, but in particular those who don't approve of homosexuality. How do gay people impact your lives? How does having them in your sangha impact your spiritual life?

The theoretical is beat to death, but this personal aspect hasn't.

No one will want to do it, because it requires vulnerability...
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:52 am

I'll go...

I am the type of person who understands things better through looking at and experiencing contrasts, than simply burrying into one thing. I'm not very bright. This is why I have made a point of taking teachings from teachers in many Buddhist traditions from Nichiren to Pure Land to Chan to various Tibetan lineages. I think it's an approach that works very well in other aspects of life as well. Want to understand noodles? eat ramen, pho and spaghetti...

Sexuality and emotional attachment are among the strongest obstacles I can encounter as a Buddhist. I find it very useful to be around people of different sexual orientations beacuse it helps me understand my own sexual attraction and emotional attachments to people. This is very useful in my Buddhist practice, as what is what is not always clear. It's also useful in just understanding my own imprinting and habituation. I'm not going to find a gay men attractive, so when I'm around gay friends, I can look at their loving relationship entire outside the context of my sexual attraction. It's nice. I don't understand the attraction, but I do understand the loving. It's a lesson that loving is separate form lust. It's also nice to be around lesbian friends. I can find myself relating to women in a space where heterosexuality is entirely irrelevant. I can also see a woman love and desire and be loved be desired entirely without anyone like me-- a male-- being involved. That's also nice. I can see that women can have a whole richness outside of the lives of men.

I find it interesting in that one way to gloss this is the endangerment of the straight white male. I find being exposed to homosexual models, as a straight male, interesting as it models how to disentangle biological drives, lust, from emotional connections. Even as a straight male, that is a great lesson, as what I find attractive is not necessarily what is good for me emotionally, and what I find emotionally comfortable is not necessarily desirable. There is nothing like mirrors that separate sexual lust from emotional attachment to allow me to fillet apart those different aspects of myself. I can attribute my happy marriage, in many ways, with my friendships with gay women in my early life, as it helped me be a better straight man. When you're late teen-something early-twenty-something the realization that women aren't inhernetly reciprocal to men is a great lesson.

I have found gay people in the sangha to be very useful as it helps me recognize my own imprinting and presumptions about sexual and gender. As an example, as a Tibetan Buddhist, a heterosexual Tibetan Buddhists, I had always thought that the "gay critique" of the yab yum images of deities would be that there should be space for them to have two male deities in union or two female deities. It was the same in terms of the sexual imagery of different tantric deities-- plump bhagas and so on-- that some of this would be zoomed in or out depending upon one's sexual orientation. It wasn't until talking to gay and lesbian Buddhists that I realized I was lost, as I was educated that much of this is simply from a heterosexual male eye, and my presumed permutations were more of the same, and irrelevant.

The same goes for understanding nuances of many aspects of practice from tantric imagery to Buddhist ethics. The khenpo I studied the three sets of vows with had me studied the full monastic pratimoksha in some depth. As a straight man it's easy to undertand the rules of a monk keeping a certain distance from a female-- if they're both straight, but what if the monk is gay keeping company of another monk, even a gay monk? Much of the pratimoksha is taken from the formulaic to the essence to understand the rules in a world that accepts the existence of LBGQTIA people. This may sound trivial as I'm not a gay or lesbian monk, but if I accept the reality of a broader sexual spectrum, I have to think about sexual ethics with a wider spectrum of people and situations, even as a straight male.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not evaluating the pratimoskha's validity or whatever, I"m just saying having scenarios that include LBGTQIA people give much room to ponder more deeply sexual ethics.

Having LBGTQIA people in one's life and in the sangha helps develop compassion, as one comes to realize how much people, even those right among us with seemingly normal and good lives suffer-- suffering from things I don't understand. Love and compassion are the heart of the dharma, so this is a very strong thing form my practice. When people share they've hid their loved ones from the coworkers or families for their entire lives, it's heart breaking. When people share how the've been endanged in different situations simply for existing, it's heart breaking. It's really important to contact this suffering in my practice of lo jong or other such practices.

Just some thoughts.

Shred away.

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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by ClearblueSky » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:49 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote: I had always thought that the "gay critique" of the yab yum images of deities would be that there should be space for them to have two male deities in union or two female deities. It was the same in terms of the sexual imagery of different tantric deities-- plump bhagas and so on-- that some of this would be zoomed in or out depending upon one's sexual orientation.
Will this do?
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Re: May be its time to ban discussion about Homosexuallity..

Post by rory » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:30 am

My Buddhist practice has been incredibly important to me as a lesbian. In 2011 while chanting at my altar, the words "you're gay" just came to me and stayed there. I'd been in the closet for years. (am in my 40's) but after that service, I knew this was a fundamental truth and I was coming out.. My practice supported me through the entire painful process of coming out. It also helped me do this without any anger, which is pretty amazing. I'm not mad at the anti gay marriage supporters or having spent half my life hiding my sexuality (knew when I was 8 I was only attracted to women). Since anger I'm quick to anger this is a very big benefit.

Being gay and buddhist temples. I posted thishttp://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... ZxrVLxVK1E on another thread. Maybe 5 years ago I attended a Chinese Mahayana temple, it got a bit uncomfortable as one of the kindly older women there wanted to fix me up with her son, who was gay. This is a common phenomena in Asia. Gay sexuality is accepted but it's private so you get married to someone of the opposites sex & it was common for gay men and women to marry & then carry on with their same sex partners. Now if I'd wanted to stay at this temple I would have said something but I didn't. And this org IBS in the US marries people so having same-sex marriage is important in terms of legitimacy....Of course it's harder in Asia where social pressure to conform is massive but I try and help my Asian lesbian acquaintances.

My other awkward is ongoing, my Japanese sensei (who is in Japan) thinks gay people want to be the opposite sex so he reassured me that in my next life I'll be a man. I wrote to him privately, that I really like being a woman who is just attracted to women and don't want to be a man, this was a misunderstanding about gay people but I don't think he believes it. But it's not a giant issue and I really like my sect - we're on the same page in terms of beliefs. To me that's more important than transferring to a local Nichiren sect with a gay priest. And I can be doing good for gay people in Japan as he interacts with me and respects me.

Even though right now I'm not remotely interested in marrying, gay marriage turns out to be a big deal as it means we're treated the same under the law as straight people. This is huge as I'm now officially equal to a straight person Before if you lived in a liberal place or were at university you could count on people accepting you. But really you were dependent on them & the current cultural mood for inclusion. Now The law of the land says I'm equal & I don't need to depend on how generous people feel to me.....it's a big deal

what else. Hm, my experiences aren't the same as a gay man. We've different sub-cultures and also society is kinder to gay women. My straight male friends mostly act to me like I'm a male, but I'm not; lesbian culture is like straight women's culture but without all the horrible messages straight women get. I'm closest to a straight feminist.
that's all I can think of for now, but feel free to ask me questions, I'm happy to talk about this
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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