Fat shaming

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Reibeam
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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Reibeam » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:40 pm

Norwegian wrote:Reibeam,

Magnus Samuelsson was also a Strongman competitor (and a European arm wrestling champion before that again), he did not sit still. He was pretty much doing only the following three things, almost every day of the week, every week of the year, year in year out: Lift heavy things (a lot), eat (a lot), and sleep (a lot). Oh, and you know what's part of the staple diet for virtually all elite Strongman competitors? Steroids. Having said steroids, I am neither approving this nor judging them, it is their choice and they all are aware of it. It's an open secret. It also doesn't mean they don't work hard. They do, and they are working extremely hard. This is why they can do what they do. The same goes for elite level powerlifters, in particular in the raw category. People like Malanichev, Konstantinovs, Koklyaev, Efferding, Spoto, Hall, etc. get the record numbers they have because of superior genetics, superior work ethic, and superior supplements. Eating 10,000 calories a day if you do what they do, is a little bit different from eating 10,000 calories a day if you do nothing or very little at all.
I realize that and know that most of the strongmen do steroids. The point was BrianG comments about consuming resources. Obviously there is a huge difference between what a strongman does and someone who eats 10,000 calories on the couch. Either way it's consumption of calories and fat people getting shamed for it.

It was also probably a bad example. Unfortunately, I think I am letting some of the ignorant comments get to me. And I am sure I have made some too. Probably best to take a break from DW for a while. It feels too much like reddit now.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by BrianG » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:15 am

Reibeam wrote: BrianG, my guess based on your avatar is that your a first world privileged American. You must not use any resources though because your not fat. But wait...
I live in the third world on about 1,000usd a month.
Do you have a car?
No
Do you have a house or apartment?
Apartment
Do you eat food?
Rice and mung beans usually. I do have a weakness for coffee, which I am trying to quit.
Do you go to the gym?
I swing an Indian Club
Do you use a computer?
A laptop
Do you turn on lights?
Yep
Do you use the bathroom?
I shit off the balcony/use the toilet
Do you use toilet paper when you defecate?
I use mostly water. Toilet paper to dry off.
Do you use AC?
I use a fan.
Yes, the U.S. Uses most of the resources, but hardly are overweight people to blame for all of it. Especially ones like that don't own cars, own houses, have AC, cant afford much food much less high quality, often have had no utilities, gym membership or any of the other finer silver spoon ammenities that I am guessing you take for granted.

What do you want them to do? Commit suicide? Shaming them is only gonna make them eat more and die a slow painful death. There is a way to be assertive and help deal with the problem or you can be a self righteous spoiled turd.

When you point one finger, baby. three are pointing right back at ya. Check you true condition and stop blaming others.
I don't think fat people should commit suicide. However, I do not agree with the whole "accept everyone for who they are, don't be so judgmental!" attitude, within the context of Buddhism. The factors that are keeping people bound to a bottomless pit of suffering, should be renounced. Greed is one of those factors, there's a reason monks aren't allowed to beg after 12 - they don't need it. Also, as I've stated already, shaming needs to be done with positive motivation, and without a self-righteous attitude, and even then, sparingly. Do I assume every overweight person is so psychologically weak that it requires coddling in every situation - No. Nor do I assume that every overweight person needs in fact to lose weight. But the culture of accepting consumption to excess, I really don't see how that will have a happy ending.

Am I hypocritical? Yes, of course, I could consume even less.
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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Reibeam » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:08 am

BrianG wrote:
Reibeam wrote: BrianG, my guess based on your avatar is that your a first world privileged American. You must not use any resources though because your not fat. But wait...
I live in the third world on about 1,000usd a month.
Do you have a car?
No
Do you have a house or apartment?
Apartment
Do you eat food?
Rice and mung beans usually. I do have a weakness for coffee, which I am trying to quit.
Do you go to the gym?
I swing an Indian Club
Do you use a computer?
A laptop
Do you turn on lights?
Yep
Do you use the bathroom?
I shit off the balcony/use the toilet
Do you use toilet paper when you defecate?
I use mostly water. Toilet paper to dry off.
Do you use AC?
I use a fan.
Yes, the U.S. Uses most of the resources, but hardly are overweight people to blame for all of it. Especially ones like that don't own cars, own houses, have AC, cant afford much food much less high quality, often have had no utilities, gym membership or any of the other finer silver spoon ammenities that I am guessing you take for granted.

What do you want them to do? Commit suicide? Shaming them is only gonna make them eat more and die a slow painful death. There is a way to be assertive and help deal with the problem or you can be a self righteous spoiled turd.

When you point one finger, baby. three are pointing right back at ya. Check you true condition and stop blaming others.
I don't think fat people should commit suicide. However, I do not agree with the whole "accept everyone for who they are, don't be so judgmental!" attitude, within the context of Buddhism. The factors that are keeping people bound to a bottomless pit of suffering, should be renounced. Greed is one of those factors, there's a reason monks aren't allowed to beg after 12 - they don't need it. Also, as I've stated already, shaming needs to be done with positive motivation, and without a self-righteous attitude, and even then, sparingly. Do I assume every overweight person is so psychologically weak that it requires coddling in every situation - No. Nor do I assume that every overweight person needs in fact to lose weight. But the culture of accepting consumption to excess, I really don't see how that will have a happy ending.

Am I hypocritical? Yes, of course, I could consume even less.

Thanks for answering honestly, we actually have a lot in common based on this (but I usually throw an egg on my rice instead of beans in the morning).

I agree with your main point, a number of people are over consuming every resource out there and preventing many from from having anything through money and power. Food is just one aspect of that overconsumption......but it goes far beyond that, food and the results of what it can do are very visceral and obvious so it's an easy target for making an example.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:09 am

BrianG wrote: I don't think fat people should commit suicide. However, I do not agree with the whole "accept everyone for who they are, don't be so judgmental!" attitude, within the context of Buddhism. The factors that are keeping people bound to a bottomless pit of suffering, should be renounced. Greed is one of those factors.
:crazy:


Then go after bankers, managers, speculators and investors, the capitalist scum that is the reason for the various financial disasters in this world and their behaviours, not poor people with a metabolic disorder.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:59 am

BrianG wrote:
I don't think fat people should commit suicide. However, I do not agree with the whole "accept everyone for who they are, don't be so judgmental!" attitude, within the context of Buddhism. The factors that are keeping people bound to a bottomless pit of suffering, should be renounced. Greed is one of those factors, there's a reason monks aren't allowed to beg after 12 - they don't need it. Also, as I've stated already, shaming needs to be done with positive motivation, and without a self-righteous attitude, and even then, sparingly. Do I assume every overweight person is so psychologically weak that it requires coddling in every situation - No. Nor do I assume that every overweight person needs in fact to lose weight. But the culture of accepting consumption to excess, I really don't see how that will have a happy ending.

Am I hypocritical? Yes, of course, I could consume even less.
I think it is a question of what is helpful. Many Westerners suffer from very poor self-esteem, self-loathing even, and some make themselves feel better by eating. Incidentally it's what parents often try with the babies - when they cry, they give them the breast or the bottle. Shaming such people will just contribute to the cause of the problem - make them feel even worse about themselves and want to numb the pain by eating.

Most of the time when we shame others it is because we are angry, feeling bad about our day or ourselves. Rarely it is out of kindness, with a heart full of love. If the heart is full of love, we will see that the person is suffering and rather than want to change them to fit our ideas, we will help them on their own terms. This rarely involves shaming, but it might very occasionally, depending on the person and the relationship, I suppose.

Even in this thread we should reflect - we are all in the same samsaric boat. We all suffer from greed, anger and ignorance. Many people look at fat people and see them as symbols of greed - they project their own greed onto the fat person rather than face it and deal with it. How does greed manifest in our own lives? It is an unpleasant reflection and it is far easier to focus on the others. Are we generous and giving? Of our time, energy, kindness and attention, not only material things? I suspect if we focused on cultivating the First Paramita, fat people would cease to disturb us, though of course we might be moved to feel compassion like for many other kinds of suffering.

I agree of course that we should not accept overconsumption and excesses of our culture. This is not just food. Rich thin people overconsume much more. Why focus on the fat?

_/|\_

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by srivijaya » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:02 pm

We are biologically still more or less stone age hunters, just with much less starvation and mass access to processed food. Our bodies are evolved to like fats and sugars in order to pile on weight to help survive until the next meal comes along. Fat was an ephemeral, almost unobtainable ideal. Female beauty was very corpulent - thus fecund - if the Venus/goddess carvings are anything to go by. Skinny was not good

http://sciencenordic.com/stone-age-hunt ... heir-carbs

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:32 pm

Gary Snyder always said that if one wishes to understand one's situation-- look to biology and anthropology.

I think there is some wisdom in what you say. Stand in Whole Foods or Kroger,or McDonald's --and you're still, in an evolutionary sense, still a hunter gatherer.

Insulin and leptin are the only hormones in the body without a corresponding hormonal switch to turn them off-- or so medico frieinds tell me. Why? Food was so scarce, particularly carbs, to the hunter gatherer, that when found, it was beneficial for survival to gorge on them. Walking about hunting that bear and you find some wild blueberries-- EAT THEM ALL.

Take that to McDonald's-- die young.
srivijaya wrote:We are biologically still more or less stone age hunters, just with much less starvation and mass access to processed food. Our bodies are evolved to like fats and sugars in order to pile on weight to help survive until the next meal comes along. Fat was an ephemeral, almost unobtainable ideal. Female beauty was very corpulent - thus fecund - if the Venus/goddess carvings are anything to go by. Skinny was not good

http://sciencenordic.com/stone-age-hunt ... heir-carbs

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:20 pm

Jikan wrote:If you're not clear what "fat shaming" means

This thread...

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=20172

...has me wondering if the habit of fat shaming has begun to create problems for Buddhist practitioners in relating to each other, and to teachers and tradition.

:cheers:
What ??? As the OP of the thread you mention, I don't think you are clear about what fat shaming really is, or about what I actually meant in this thread which had absolutely nothing to do with fat shaming...
And if you didn't like my question, then maybe I should complain about doubt shaming or question shaming or new-to-buddhism-and-the-whole-guru-you-should-completely-trust-thing shaming...

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Ayu » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:58 am

In this context I like this speech very much: "The most beautiful way to stop a bully"

phpBB [video]


(It is about looking behind the surface.)
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:26 pm

Back to the OP...

... I do see people use weight to evaluate teachers and other practitioners. I've heard people say things in reference to lamas and monastics like "wow, he isn't skipping too many meals". When I travelled with a dharma brother to see lama Wangdor I overheard somebody say that. I pointed out he carried his lama out of Tibetan on his back.

I also see practitioners evaluate eachother. Like fat shaming in other parts of society, people often presume fat practitionters are lazy and have bad ethics. They obviously don't do ngondro and they obviously don't sit. But that's all nonsense.

There are other social biases that come out in the sangha according to our prejudices.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:06 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I can't even imagine how much it sucks to go to dietitians, nutritionists, etc. in an effort to lose weight. So many of the messages out there are insulting, myopic, and self-defeating.
It depends what kind of dietitians or nutritionists you go to, just like in any other field in life. Same could be said about massage therapists or buddhist teachers for that matter :emb:

Obviously there is going to be a huge difference between on one hand a health professional who needs you to come back to them regularly for their business to run smoothly, and of course every failure will be the client's, not his or his diet's, and on the other a health professional who is only interested in helping you get better, which is more likely to be the case when they have a staff position with a fixed salary and no corporate accounting to worry about. There are also those who need to promote their brand-new fad diets, and those who help you lose weight before summer making sure the rebound effect will be maximal so they can see you again next summer and possibly your friends since you lost those extra pounds so quickly thanks to him... with your selective memory and biases helping you forget that you gained them back and more a few weeks later, but of course it's all your fault as a patient, never his as a healthcare professional. Self-esteem was already not great, it gets worse, and that's how year after year, diet after diet, a healthy young woman who felt like shedding a couple of pounds turns into an obese patient with diabetes high blood pressure sleep apnea and so on twenty years later. I've seen that countless times.

I'm not sure where you hail from, but when I worked with obese patients, I was always with a team and never on my own as a dietitian. I never had to deal with the psychological side of it, because a psychologist was there to do just that. Same with the sophrologist and the physiotherapist. Hypnosis was also available if patients were interested, but that wasn't everyone's cup of tea. I don't think it could have been much more 'holistic' than that, and that's a very common setting in most hospitals in my area where the weight-loss industry is probably not as powerful and pervasive as in North America.

At the end of the day, every overweight person is different and may or may not want to lose weight for specific reasons. Some of those reasons are healthy, others are not, and today's serious treatment options take that into account. I think there should be a bigger space between 'shaming' overweight persons and the phobia of sounding unPC. It shouldn't be either this or that with nothing in between, as it sounds like to me when I read some comments here.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:09 am

lostitude wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I can't even imagine how much it sucks to go to dietitians, nutritionists, etc. in an effort to lose weight. So many of the messages out there are insulting, myopic, and self-defeating.
It depends what kind of dietitians or nutritionists you go to, just like in any other field in life. Same could be said about massage therapists or buddhist teachers for that matter :emb:

Obviously there is going to be a huge difference between on one hand a health professional who needs you to come back to them regularly for their business to run smoothly, and of course every failure will be the client's, not his or his diet's, and on the other a health professional who is only interested in helping you get better, which is more likely to be the case when they have a staff position with a fixed salary and no corporate accounting to worry about. There are also those who need to promote their brand-new fad diets, and those who help you lose weight before summer making sure the rebound effect will be maximal so they can see you again next summer and possibly your friends since you lost those extra pounds so quickly thanks to him... with your selective memory and biases helping you forget that you gained them back and more a few weeks later, but of course it's all your fault as a patient, never his as a healthcare professional. Self-esteem was already not great, it gets worse, and that's how year after year, diet after diet, a healthy young woman who felt like shedding a couple of pounds turns into an obese patient with diabetes high blood pressure sleep apnea and so on twenty years later. I've seen that countless times.

I'm not sure where you hail from, but when I worked with obese patients, I was always with a team and never on my own as a dietitian. I never had to deal with the psychological side of it, because a psychologist was there to do just that. Same with the sophrologist and the physiotherapist. Hypnosis was also available if patients were interested, but that wasn't everyone's cup of tea. I don't think it could have been much more 'holistic' than that, and that's a very common setting in most hospitals in my area where the weight-loss industry is probably not as powerful and pervasive as in North America.

At the end of the day, every overweight person is different and may or may not want to lose weight for specific reasons. Some of those reasons are healthy, others are not, and today's serious treatment options take that into account. I think there should be a bigger space between 'shaming' overweight persons and the phobia of sounding unPC. It shouldn't be either this or that with nothing in between, as it sounds like to me when I read some comments here.
On the bolded bit, IMO part of the problem was your presentation. You sounded quite unsympathetic towards overweight people, and the post that prompted this one felt frankly, sophomoric because it seemed to imply that realization can be determined by whether or not someone is fat. It's a silly position to hold IMO, I feel confident that many agreed on that part. Whether or not it was "fat shaming" I don't know, probably not. I don't think you intended to shame anyone. The OP basically came off as something like "What was Buddhas BMI"..I believe you did not mean it this way, and that your approach is because of your profession, combined with the limits of digital communication, not some bad intention. However, really the question was an odd one, oddly phrased, and it got the responses i'd expect.

I will say that it is fairly obvious though you didn't deal with the psychological end of things, and leave it at that.

As to the "industry" generally (I know that can mean a wide range of things), my experience is that many dietitians and nutritionists took a long time to even understand that saturated fats were not as huge a problem as thought during the "low fat" years, even though the data has been out there forever and a day. I've seen some batsh*t insane advice from nutritionists in particular. Maybe most aren't like this, I don't know, I only know that most weight loss centers etc. I've seen seem to emphasize what i'd see as an unhealthy, body-image centric view of things like diet and health. A lot of them are also quite expensive, and IMO are basically milking people's bad feelings about themselves, a step up from "dieting" maybe, but far from ideal.

Sorry if that's harsh, obviously just subjective opinion based on limited experiences, you might be the best dietitian in the world for all I know. All I know is based purely on seeing you write about overweight folks, theoretically I wouldn't send anyone your way. Why? You seem preoccupied with the idea that fat people simply eat too many calories. On a basic level, of course you are technically correct..but such a compartmentalized and reductionist approach to weight loss is pretty much insulting by default, whether or not you intend it to be, IMO. I realize as a dietitian, you have a certain point of view, but really,, presenting a problem that dogs so many people as simply being an issue of eating less calories, well..hopefully you understand why that might come off as dismissive, or maybe even "shaming". It's akin to ignoring the entire psychological part of "being fat", and pretending it is just lazy people who are failing to not do physical acts. A fine approach for someone who just wants to feel superior, but I would think a limited one for someone who actually has to work with overweight folks, and see the emotional fallout in person.

I actually agree that there is a golden mean between being pc and being frank about people's weight, you just seem exceptionally unsympathetic with your patients/clients. Of course, that is just what comes across to me personally (I am not overweight btw, in case it's tugging at you to know) in your writing, and I realize the reality could be a completely different story.
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Re: Fat shaming

Post by Jesse » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:05 am

If there's anything worse than black people or gays, it's fatties and mentally ill people. Just behave and live the way I want you to world!
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
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Re: Fat shaming

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:00 pm

lostitude wrote:
Jikan wrote:If you're not clear what "fat shaming" means

This thread...

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=20172

...has me wondering if the habit of fat shaming has begun to create problems for Buddhist practitioners in relating to each other, and to teachers and tradition.

:cheers:
What ??? As the OP of the thread you mention, I don't think you are clear about what fat shaming really is, or about what I actually meant in this thread which had absolutely nothing to do with fat shaming...
And if you didn't like my question, then maybe I should complain about doubt shaming or question shaming or new-to-buddhism-and-the-whole-guru-you-should-completely-trust-thing shaming...
The only connection between this thread and the one you refer to is that I thought of the idea for this thread after reading yours--as I said. Why assume this thread is about you?

I'm interested in this idea of "doubt shaming" you have. Can you point to a specific example of this? It seems to me that questions from beginners, even rude and presumptuous ones, tend to get detailed and careful responses here, even when those who ask the questions and don't get the answers they want sometimes lash out and point fingers rather than take responsibility.

Finally, I'd like to hear more about what you think fat shaming actually means, since you are dissatisfied with the accounts given so far by journalists and DharmaWheel members themselves who have suffered from this issue.
Last edited by DGA on Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:08 pm

Dan74 wrote:While I agree that fat shaming is a legitimate concern, the thread that prompted this was not about fat shaming. It was asking whether enlightenment was compatible with being fat. This is a different question entirely.
Of course it's a separate question--hence the separate thread. One particular assumption in that thread--that obesity reflects unresolved emotional problems on the part of the obese--triggered this topic in me. If one assumes that obese people are necessarily suffering from emotional conflicts, then one must also assume that obese Buddhist teachers have yet to resolve their emotional knots (klesha), which means that these teachers are necessarily hypocrites. I think this position is counterproductive. And it got me thinking about fat shaming, which is also counterproductive...
Saying that overeating is incompatible with enlightenment is not fat shaming, IMO, it's a valid view to hold.
Sure, but this claim assumes that obesity is caused by the poor moral choice of overeating. That assumption has yet to be demonstrated. Nor do I recall anyone in that thread holding such a view.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:10 pm

Dan74 wrote:The number one problem I see is hubris and lack of compassion. I mean we are all deluded, eating disorders are just easier to see than other problems. Being honest with ourselves and showing kindness and compassion is the way to go, rather than judging and shaming. Sure very occasionally it helps to say things in a direct manner in order to cut through the crap we tell ourselves, but most of the time, unless it comes from someone we trust and respect, we don't take it well and dig our heels in even deeper. So a gentle, kind, compassionate attitude wins most of the time.

_/|\_
Well spoken.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by theanarchist » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:27 pm

Jikan wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Of course it's a separate question--hence the separate thread. One particular assumption in that thread--that obesity reflects unresolved emotional problems on the part of the obese.

It is, but it is also a metabolic, physical disease. Once you have amassed that amount of fat, the fat itself starts to make hormones, unbalancing your metabolism and hunger system.

So it's no longer just a purely psychological addiction, like for example gambling or obsessive shopping is.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:44 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Of course it's a separate question--hence the separate thread. One particular assumption in that thread--that obesity reflects unresolved emotional problems on the part of the obese.

It is, but it is also a metabolic, physical disease. Once you have amassed that amount of fat, the fat itself starts to make hormones, unbalancing your metabolism and hunger system.

So it's no longer just a purely psychological addiction, like for example gambling or obsessive shopping is.
I'd argue that obesity is a social problem--a social disease. Its causes are social, in how our food system works, and how our infrastructure is built. GIGO, you know? It's ridiculous to blame individuals for problems that have social roots. it's like blaming someone who lives in a city full of air pollution for developing asthma.

Bracket that, and suppose that obesity really is a personal or individual thing for a moment. What are the causes of obesity? Eating too much of the wrong things, and not exercising--sure. But also alcoholism (another disease). Diabetes. Metabolic problems. These are diseases that have causes well beyond one's conduct at the 7-11.

So, as I said, it's presumptuous at best to tie it all to a problem of personal choice or bad morals or whatever.

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Re: Fat shaming

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:44 pm

Jikan wrote: The only connection between this thread and the one you refer to is that I thought of the idea for this thread after reading yours--as I said. Why assume this thread is about you?
About 'me', of course not. About my question in the other thread, clearly that's how you make it sound, and apparently I'm not the only one who understood it that way, so maybe it's not just all in my mind... :thinking:
I'm interested in this idea of "doubt shaming" you have. Can you point to a specific example of this? It seems to me that questions from beginners, even rude and presumptuous ones, tend to get detailed and careful responses here
I honestly had to go back and check because I didn't really care and forgot about the specific terms... but since you're asking: my question was described as arrogant, myopic, not genuine, silly, plus other nicely chosen qualifiers that have since then been edited and removed, and yet others you can find in the remainder of the thread, I hope you'll excuse me if I haven't taken note of them. I wonder why those edits though, if really there was nothing wrong about those, and if there really was no anger in the responses, as was claimed by some. I for one don't call obese people arrogant and myopic and not genuine and silly.
even when those who ask the questions and don't get the answers they want sometimes lash out and point fingers rather than take responsibility.
"Lashing out' is pretty much how I would describe some of the responses to my initial question, at least in the early stages of the 'enlightened yet fat' thread. Not that I mind... but I wonder who you are referring to here, when you talk about lashing out and pointing fingers. I think I can safely assume you're not talking about me.
Finally, I'd like to hear more about what you think fat shaming actually means, since you are dissatisfied with the accounts given so far
I'm only dissatisfied with the link you establish between my thread and fat shaming. If you think there was fat shaming in my question, then either you don't know what fat shaming is, or you didn't understand what my question was all about.
theanarchist wrote:It is, but it is also a metabolic, physical disease. Once you have amassed that amount of fat, the fat itself starts to make hormones, unbalancing your metabolism and hunger system.
But you have to amass that amount of fat in the first place.
Jikan wrote:It's ridiculous to blame individuals for problems that have social roots.
There is no social behavior without psychological behavior. You're just using another label for the same problem. Society is all about psychology, hence the discipline called 'social psychology' :smile:
it's like blaming someone who lives in a city full of air pollution for developing asthma.
You can't compare the unconscious act of breathing with the conscious act of eating. One involves choice and discernment, while the other only involves reflex muscle contractions.
So, as I said, it's presumptuous at best to tie it all to a problem of personal choice or bad morals or whatever.
I'm not sure what presumptuous means (English is not my mother tongue), but I agree with that. It's not all down to a problem of personal choice. But it is, at least in part, most of the time.

lostitude
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Fat shaming

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:04 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: On the bolded bit, IMO part of the problem was your presentation. You sounded quite unsympathetic towards overweight people, and the post that prompted this one felt frankly, sophomoric because it seemed to imply that realization can be determined by whether or not someone is fat. It's a silly position to hold IMO
To respond to this and the general idea that I had unrealistic expectations about gurus and teachers. Well I don't think I'm the only one. The only thing that made my question stand out was the specific factor I used (weight), while other people could be wondering about other stuff.
The fact is that popular litterature about buddhism (and I'm not talking about treatises or specialised ressources etc.) present it as a way to become COMPLETELY detached from this world. So obviously as a dietitian one of the most obvious detachments I could think of would be detachment from food. I see food addiction and cravings everyday so I'm so sorry if that's one of the first things that spring to mind... :oops: I don't understand though how this can be so shocking or unacceptable or silly. We each have specific occupations and thus specific interests, and that's why the questions we have about life are not one and the same.

So when I read that realised gurus 'don't have a body' (read on this forum), can't feel pain (read on this forum), can levitate (read here), can have some kind of rainbow body (whatever that means, I didn't even check because I'm not interested - read on this forum), and then what's next, walking on water like Jesus maybe, however those same people can't control their body fat storage (even though they can hibernate and slow down their metabolism so much that they just look dead to most people except they're not - they are just meditating (read on this forum about the preserved mummy of a monk), allow me to ask this type of questions!!!

I'm giving you all those examples to point out the enormous expectations that this kind of discourse creates in the minds of newcomers who don't have a first idea about buddhism. And guess what, I'm one of them!
So then, when you tell me that these gurus are just human people like us and they are not perfect but still, if you see their imperfections then they're yours not theirs, and when my question about these supposedly exceptional beings is interpreted as a question about 'fat people' in general and becomes a case of 'fat shaming' and so on... you should be at least aware of the confusion this can create about what I should expect from a teacher and from practising with him.

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