Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke
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Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

Post by Luke »

Here is a sort-of-current event for you all :D

"Why the Satanic Temple Is Opening Its Doors to American Muslims"
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/ne ... w-muslims/

What are your opinions about the Satanic Temple's actions which are described in this newstory?

Is it a positive example that we Buddhists should follow or just foolishness?
Jesse
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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No, they don't actually worship Satan. The Satanic Temple is an openly atheistic religion that Mesner says does not advocate for any supernatural belief. Really, the "Satanic" term is only there because they have the right to use it.
They aren't satanists, so it's pointless to call them that. They are atheists.

Satanists believe the purpose of life is to sate desire, happiness at any cost. I forget what the philosophy is called.

http://www.joyofsatan.org/
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Jesse wrote:
No, they don't actually worship Satan. The Satanic Temple is an openly atheistic religion that Mesner says does not advocate for any supernatural belief. Really, the "Satanic" term is only there because they have the right to use it.
They aren't satanists, so it's pointless to call them that. They are atheists.

Satanists believe the purpose of life is to sate desire, happiness at any cost. I forget what the philosophy is called.
\

Even 'mainstream' Laveyan satanists don't really believe in or focus on the supernatural, it's really just a focus on social darwinist ideas and hedonism, almost all "Satanists" i've met are in fact atheists.

To date, despite having been a counter-culture person for years, I have never met one person who actually "worshipped Satan" (unless you count teenagers in Slayer shirts trying to seem cool), though I don't doubt they are out there.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Jesse wrote:
No, they don't actually worship Satan. The Satanic Temple is an openly atheistic religion that Mesner says does not advocate for any supernatural belief. Really, the "Satanic" term is only there because they have the right to use it.
They aren't satanists, so it's pointless to call them that. They are atheists.

Satanists believe the purpose of life is to sate desire, happiness at any cost. I forget what the philosophy is called.
\

Even 'mainstream' Laveyan satanists don't really believe in or focus on the supernatural, it's really just a focus on social darwinist ideas and hedonism, almost all "Satanists" i've met are in fact atheists.

To date, despite having been a counter-culture person for years, I have never met one person who actually "worshipped Satan", though I don't doubt they are out there.
http://www.joyofsatan.org/
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Even 'mainstream' Laveyan satanists don't really believe in or focus on the supernatural, it's really just a focus on social darwinist ideas and hedonism, almost all "Satanists" i've met are in fact atheists.
It is possible to have two philosophical identities: one can be both an atheistic and a "Satanist" (according to some definition of the term), just like some Chinese people are both Buddhist and Confucian and some Buddhists would call themselves atheists, as well. Plus lots of so-called Christians act in ways which aren't in accordance with Jesus' teachings. Religous identity is a complex thing... So I don't see why Satanists have to be held to a standard which many other people of other religions don't even meet... lol

Anyway, the meaning of a term is ultimately determined by how it is used by people, and these days, "Satanism" often means some type of atheistic/humanist philosophy which utilizes classic Satanic symbols because they still have a powerful effect on people's minds and they get attention quickly.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:To date, despite having been a counter-culture person for years, I have never met one person who actually "worshipped Satan" (unless you count teenagers in Slayer shirts trying to seem cool), though I don't doubt they are out there.
Yes, they seem to be fairly rare.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Even 'mainstream' Laveyan satanists don't really believe in or focus on the supernatural, it's really just a focus on social darwinist ideas and hedonism, almost all "Satanists" i've met are in fact atheists.
It is possible to have two philosophical identities: one can be both an atheistic and a "Satanist" (according to some definition of the term), just like some Chinese people are both Buddhist and Confucian and some Buddhists would call themselves atheists, as well. Plus lots of so-called Christians act in ways which aren't in accordance with Jesus' teachings. Religous identity is a complex thing... So I don't see why Satanists have to be held to a standard which many other people of other religions don't even meet... lol

Anyway, the meaning of a term is ultimately determined by how it is used by people, and these days, "Satanism" often means some type of atheistic/humanist philosophy which utilizes classic Satanic symbols because they still have a powerful effect on people's minds and they get attention quickly.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:To date, despite having been a counter-culture person for years, I have never met one person who actually "worshipped Satan" (unless you count teenagers in Slayer shirts trying to seem cool), though I don't doubt they are out there.
Yes, they seem to be fairly rare.
From this day forward, I will promote Atheism as the new Buddhism then.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Jesse wrote: From this day forward, I will promote Atheism as the new Buddhism then.
Well, Stephen Batchelor has already kind of done this! lol And you are free to do what you want...

But Satanism and Buddhism are in opposite situations, I think:
There are more benefits to following traditional versions of Buddhism than modern, watered-down versions of it, but there are many benefits for Satanism to get away from its older and more stereotypical forms.

***Anyway, nobody is responding to my original questions in my OP.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:
Jesse wrote: From this day forward, I will promote Atheism as the new Buddhism then.
Well, Stephen Batchelor has already kind of done this! lol And you are free to do what you want...

But Satanism and Buddhism are in opposite situations, I think:
There are more benefits to following traditional versions of Buddhism than modern, watered-down versions of it, but there are many benefits for Satanism to get away from its older and more stereotypical forms.

***Anyway, nobody is responding to my original questions in my OP.
You don't see how atheists hijacking a religion could be seen as offensive? That's all im pointing out. It's a form of cultural genocide.

and as for the op, of course assisting people in trouble is something to emulate.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Jesse wrote: You don't see how atheists hijacking a religion could be seen as offensive? That's all im pointing out. It's a form of cultural genocide.
Yes, I can see how this can be negative in the case of an established religion which has a long history.

But with Satanism, there is no old religion to hijack! There isn't really any old continuous lineage of Satanism. There is just a collection of medieval European philosophies (hermeticism, paganism, platonism) which Christians often labeled as "Satanic" and then there is Christian propaganda about Satanism from such as events as the Inquistion, witch hunts, etc. and that's about it!
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:
Jesse wrote: You don't see how atheists hijacking a religion could be seen as offensive? That's all im pointing out. It's a form of cultural genocide.
Yes, I can see how this can be negative in the case of an established religion which has a long history.

But with Satanism, there is no old religion to hijack! There isn't really any old continuous lineage of Satanism. There is just a collection of medieval European philosophies (hermeticism, paganism, platonism) which Christians often labeled as "Satanic" and then there is Christian propaganda about Satanism from such as events as the Inquistion, witch hunts, etc. and that's about it!

Yes, modern day "Satanism" is really just a (usually juvenile) reaction to Christianity, and things perceived as "Christian" basically. Ironically, by painting concepts like compassion for others as weak-willed (which Laveyan Satanism early on pretty much did - it was very much a social Darwinist philosophy, very much about "greed/self-concern is good"), they have actually given Christianity de facto cultural ownership of all these (virtuous) things, which in fact are obviously found in many religions.

Satanism is really just well, it's dumb. That's all I can say. I thought it was dumb in the 80's and 90's when it was becoming a thing, and it's still dumb now. Goes to show that sometimes ideas persist regardless of their validity lol.

It's nice of these guys to make the offer anyway, but it's not like Muslims of any stripe are likely to take them up on it.

My community immediately started having interfaith thingies to encourage interactions with the Muslim community here (which seems pretty integrated already), of course I live in a place low on that kind of cultural conflict anyway, the real test will be in areas where anti-immigrant/Muslim sentiment is greatest.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:My community immediately started having interfaith thingies to encourage interactions with the Muslim community here ...
That's certainly the way to go - including Islam in what is defined as 'normal' and 'mainstream'. The Satanists' gesture, on the other hand, may be well meant but tends to place Islam amongst the oppositional, contrarian, marginal groups in society, which is exactly what we are trying to counteract.

:namaste:
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Kim O'Hara wrote: That's certainly the way to go - including Islam in what is defined as 'normal' and 'mainstream'. The Satanists' gesture, on the other hand, may be well meant but tends to place Islam amongst the oppositional, contrarian, marginal groups in society, which is exactly what we are trying to counteract.
Eh, I don't know. I think the media has a much bigger effect on making muslims appear like a group which is opposing western values than one medium-sized Satanist group ever could. The Satanists did announce their plan on the internet, but only a few people will probably ever see the articles about this and the Satanists said that they would escort the Muslims who took up their offer while wearing plain clothes and that they wouldn't display any Satanist symbols, so they would be quite discreet about it.

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Satanism is really just well, it's dumb. That's all I can say. I thought it was dumb in the 80's and 90's when it was becoming a thing, and it's still dumb now. Goes to show that sometimes ideas persist regardless of their validity lol.
Perhaps, but is Satanism really any dumber than Evangelical Christianity?? It seems to be quite a double standard if only Satanism gets singled out for being "dumb"...
There have certainly been far more stupid cults/religions...

And the leader of the Satanic Temple, Lucien Greaves (Doug Mesner) is the first Satanist I have encountered who is definitely not stupid. Although he ain't no Dalai Lama, he is well-educated and well-read.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Johnny wrote: Even 'mainstream' Laveyan satanists don't really believe in or focus on the supernatural, it's really just a focus on social darwinist ideas and hedonism, almost all "Satanists" i've met are in fact atheists.

To date, despite having been a counter-culture person for years, I have never met one person who actually "worshipped Satan" (unless you count teenagers in Slayer shirts trying to seem cool), though I don't doubt they are out there.
There are indeed real Satanists out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles

A lot of it sounds like LARPing rather than something people are really doing, thankfully.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: That's certainly the way to go - including Islam in what is defined as 'normal' and 'mainstream'. The Satanists' gesture, on the other hand, may be well meant but tends to place Islam amongst the oppositional, contrarian, marginal groups in society, which is exactly what we are trying to counteract.
Eh, I don't know. I think the media has a much bigger effect on making muslims appear like a group which is opposing western values than one medium-sized Satanist group ever could. The Satanists did announce their plan on the internet, but only a few people will probably ever see the articles about this and the Satanists said that they would escort the Muslims who took up their offer while wearing plain clothes and that they wouldn't display any Satanist symbols, so they would be quite discreet about it.

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Satanism is really just well, it's dumb. That's all I can say. I thought it was dumb in the 80's and 90's when it was becoming a thing, and it's still dumb now. Goes to show that sometimes ideas persist regardless of their validity lol.
Perhaps, but is Satanism really any dumber than Evangelical Christianity?? It seems to be quite a double standard if only Satanism gets singled out for being "dumb"...
There have certainly been far more stupid cults/religions...

And the leader of the Satanic Temple, Lucien Greaves (Doug Mesner) is the first Satanist I have encountered who is definitely not stupid. Although he ain't no Dalai Lama, he is well-educated and well-read.

No, it's no dumber than evangelical Xianity..because it's basically just a counter movement to what it sees as "Judeo Christian values" anyway, it has far more of a political purpose than a spiritual one. I didn't say they were dumb, I have good friends that on some level have been or are into this sort of thing. I think spiritually however, it's completely silly. I also am not a huge fan of evangelical Christianity, so no double standardbut the thread is about Satanism so..

Paul: Like I said, I don't doubt they are out there, let's hope it's mostly just LARPing indeed.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: anyway, it has far more of a political purpose than a spiritual one.
This part I agree with in regard to the mainstream modern Satanists organizations in the US. The Satanic Temple has been especially effective at using the media to pursue its political agenda (mainly in the areas of protecting freedom of religion and freedom of speech).
For an overview of these activities, you can watch this half-hour video of a lecture by the head of the Satanic Temple.

phpBB [video]


Johnny Dangerous wrote:I didn't say they were dumb, I have good friends that on some level have been or are into this sort of thing. I think spiritually however, it's completely silly.
Yes, I agree that their religious philosophies are either silly or negative spiritually, for the most part.

However, I proceed from the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" perspective, and I think that these mainstream Satanist groups do help to bring attention to freedom of religion issues and do their part to fight against the sometimes overbearing activities of Christian groups in the US. Furthermore, a lot of them have backgrounds and personalities very similar to ours and some of them have a bit of interest in Buddhism; therefore, there exists the possibility for some degree of interaction between our two communities. Some of them might become more deeply interested in Buddhism, and some of us can learn to see them as ordinary human beings and as part of the infinite number of sentient beings which we Mahayana Buddhists are trying to help liberate.

If you skip to about 1:17:35 in this video, you can see a short interview with Peter Gilmore, the current head of the Church of Satan (the one that was started by LaVey). What struck me was how absolutely ordinary he seems! lol
phpBB [video]
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:Yes, I agree that their religious philosophies are either silly or negative spiritually, for the most part.

However, I proceed from the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" perspective, and I think that these mainstream Satanist groups do help to bring attention to freedom of religion issues and do their part to fight against the sometimes overbearing activities of Christian groups in the US.
Pastafarianism does it better. See http://www.venganza.org/about/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.
Why? Because it's explicitly a push-back "against the sometimes overbearing activities of Christian groups in the US" and because it's fun. Satanism doesn't do it so well because some people (I hope you're not one of them) take it seriously.
Furthermore, a lot of them have backgrounds and personalities very similar to ours and some of them have a bit of interest in Buddhism; therefore, there exists the possibility for some degree of interaction between our two communities.
Not really. There's a big difference between fooling round with a nonsense 'religion' and seriously trying to reduce suffering.
Some of them might become more deeply interested in Buddhism, and some of us can learn to see them as ordinary human beings and as part of the infinite number of sentient beings which we Mahayana Buddhists are trying to help liberate.
So might some Evangelicals, some Mormons, some Catholics - and there are far more of each of these groups than of Satanists. :toilet:

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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Kim O'Hara wrote:
Furthermore, a lot of them have backgrounds and personalities very similar to ours and some of them have a bit of interest in Buddhism; therefore, there exists the possibility for some degree of interaction between our two communities.
Not really. There's a big difference between fooling round with a nonsense 'religion' and seriously trying to reduce suffering.
I agree, and that is a noble thing to say. But in the west, people aren't just drawn to Buddhist groups solely for the reduction of suffering. In the west, Buddhist groups are also social clubs for intellectual, middle-class white people who don't believe in a creator god--as are the Satanist groups. It's pretty much the same demographic in both, except that Buddhist groups regularly get a few to a lot of Asians, as well, depending on the area.
One is just as unlikely to see a black person in a leadership role in a western Buddhist group as one is to see a black person in a leadership role in a western Satanist group.
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Some of them might become more deeply interested in Buddhism, and some of us can learn to see them as ordinary human beings and as part of the infinite number of sentient beings which we Mahayana Buddhists are trying to help liberate.
So might some Evangelicals, some Mormons, some Catholics - and there are far more of each of these groups than of Satanists. :toilet:
True, but most monotheists will never give up their "creator god" concept--although some might be willing to generalize it a bit and eventually find something like Hinduism acceptable and interesting for them.

For atheists who want to be religious, there are only very few roads open to them: Buddhism, Jainism (which is very hard to do outside of India), and Satanism.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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However, I proceed from the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" perspective, and I think that these mainstream Satanist groups do help to bring attention to freedom of religion issues and do their part to fight against the sometimes overbearing activities of Christian groups in the US. Furthermore, a lot of them have backgrounds and personalities very similar to ours and some of them have a bit of interest in Buddhism; therefore, there exists the possibility for some degree of interaction between our two communities. Some of them might become more deeply interested in Buddhism, and some of us can learn to see them as ordinary human beings and as part of the infinite number of sentient beings which we Mahayana Buddhists are trying to help liberate.
There are already organizations fighting for things like separation of church and state here that do a much better job than Satanists, usually the Satanists are just doing PR tricks, and not the actual legwork. It serves it's purpose as drawing attention, but it isn't that big a deal, IMO. IME very few people interested in the Laveyan version of Satanism have much interest in Buddhism, because ironically there is a big crossover between the atheist and Satanist communities, and typically they have a very visceral reaction against anything they see as "religious". In the past, when Laveyan Satanism was more identified with what you'd call right-wing anarchism, or even proto-fascism, they were very opposed to many of the things that Buddhists would believe in - viewing the needs of others as more important, a sense of altruism etc.

I'm not saying they are bad people, there are certainly plenty of decent folks involved, but IMO it has little to do with their Satanism, which is mostly just a gimmicky thing. Certainly I don't see them as not being ordinary human beings, I just think their religion is silly, and a product of bored, middle class consumer culture, it really has few upsides, IMO.
For atheists who want to be religious, there are only very few roads open to them: Buddhism, Jainism (which is very hard to do outside of India), and Satanism.
This is true, and like all middle class folks, the Satanists (or people sympathetic to it) I've known have some vague sense of "respect" for Buddhism..until they find out that in fact, it teaches morality and what they see as "religious" concepts. So their attitude is pretty much the same as what they are actually are, which is normally Atheist/Materialist/Naive Realist types.
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Luke wrote:For atheists who want to be religious, there are only very few roads open to them: Buddhism, Jainism (which is very hard to do outside of India), and Satanism.
You might want to run that past a bullshit-detector, Luke. Satanism is not atheist.

:toilet:
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Re: Satanists offering to protect Muslims in Minneapolis

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Kim O'Hara wrote:
Luke wrote:For atheists who want to be religious, there are only very few roads open to them: Buddhism, Jainism (which is very hard to do outside of India), and Satanism.
You might want to run that past a bullshit-detector, Luke. Satanism is not atheist.
Read and learn:

Satanist groups that appeared after the 1960s are widely diverse, but two major trends are theistic Satanism and atheistic Satanism. Theistic Satanists venerate Satan as a supernatural deity, viewing him not as omnipotent but rather as a patriarch. In contrast, atheistic Satanists regard Satan as merely a symbol of certain human traits.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

LaVeyan Satanism is a religious philosophy founded in 1966 by Anton LaVey, codified in The Satanic Bible and overseen by the Church of Satan. Its core philosophy is based concepts of individualism, egoism, epicureanism, self-deification and self-preservation,[15][16][17][18] and propagates a worldview of natural law, materialism, Lex Talionis, and mankind as animals in an amoral universe.[19][16][20][21] Adherents to the philosophy have described Satanism as a non-spiritual religion of the flesh, or "...the world's first carnal religion".[22][23][24]

Contrary to popular belief, LaVeyan Satanism does not involve "devil worship" or worship of any deities. It is an atheistic philosophy that asserts the individual as his or her own god. Adherents instead see the character of Satan as an archetype of pride, carnality, liberty, enlightenment, undefiled wisdom, and of a cosmos which Satanists perceive to be motivated by a "dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things".[25][26] He also serves as a conceptual framework and an external metaphorical projection of [the Satanists] highest personal potential. Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן satan, meaning "adversary") is seen as a symbol of defiance to the conservatism of mainstream philosophical and religious currents, mainly the Abrahamic religions, that see this character as their antithesis.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism# ... c_Satanism


Pentagonal Revisionism: A Five-Point Program
by Anton Szandor LaVey

© 1988

In recent years, we’ve wasted far too much time explaining that Satanism has nothing to do with kidnapping, drug abuse, child molestation, animal or child sacrifice, or any number of other acts that idiots, hysterics or opportunists would like to credit us with. Satanism is a life-loving, rational philosophy that millions of people adhere to. Now we’re ready for something that goes quite a few steps beyond just explaining our principles. Every revisionist movement needs a set of goals/guidelines that are clear, concrete, and that will effect significant changes.

The following Five-Point Program reflects attitudes which allow others to decide whether they wish to align themselves with Satanism or not. Each is necessary for Satanic change to take place. When asked what we’re “doing,” here’s the answer:

1) Stratification
The point on which all the others ultimately rest. There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.

2) Strict taxation of all churches
If churches were taxed for all their income and property, they’d crumble overnight of their own obsolescence, and the National Debt would be wiped out as quickly. The productive, the creative, the resourceful should be subsidized. So long as the useless and incompetent are getting paid, they should be heavily taxed.

3) No tolerance for religious beliefs secularized and incorporated into law and order issues
to re-establish “Lex Talionis” would require a complete overturning of the present in-justice system based on Judeo-Christian ideals, where the victim/defender has been made the criminal. Amnesty should be considered for anyone in prison because of his alleged “influence” upon the actual perpetrator of the crime. Everyone is influenced in what he or she does. Scapegoating has become a way of life, a means of survival for the unfit. As an extension of the Judeo-Christian cop-out of blaming the Devil for everything, criminals can gain leniency, even praise, by placing the blame on a convenient villain. Following the Satanic creed of “Responsibility to the responsible,” in a Satanic society, everyone must experience the consequences of his own actions—for good or ill.

4)Development and production of artificial human companions
The forbidden industry. An economic “godsend” which will allow everyone “power” over someone else. Polite, sophisticated, technologically feasible slavery. And the most profitable industry since T.V. and the computer.

5)The opportunity for anyone to live within a total environment of his or her choice, with mandatory adherence to the aesthetic and behavioral standards of same
Privately owned, operated and controlled environments as an alternative to homogenized and polyglot ones. The freedom to insularize oneself within a social milieu of personal well-being. An opportunity to feel, see, and hear that which is most aesthetically pleasing, without interference from those who would pollute or detract from that option.

This is the encapsulated version of the current thrust of Satanic advocacy. So when someone asks you, “Well, what do Satanists do?”, you will be qualified to tell him.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/pentagonal-revisionism.php
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