Dunning-Kruger Effect

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:34 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

This is one of the more interesting problems in learning and communicating. It goes like this: incompetent people often find themselves overestimating the value of their own contributions, their status, and their abilities and knowledge because, by virtue of being incompetent, they don't know what competence is.

they have a difficult time relating to competent and capable people because they don't understand what differentiates the sheep from the goats--i.e., why does so-and-so get the raises and promotions, while I'm stuck here on probation? Again, because they don't know what competence, much less excellence, is they misjudge those around them, and consequently become resentful, spiteful, and just unpleasant to be around.

Which is to say that stupidity is not only a deficit in learning, but also a barrier to learning. Not knowing you're stupid is a special kind of stupidity because you don't know you're stupid, and consequently try to educate others instead of seeking out a remedy to your own stupidity.

Moderator note: Let's just keep this topic centered on the issue at hand and not people who are no longer able to defend themselves.

:coffee:

jake
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by jake » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:43 pm

Dunning-Kruger is my absolute favorite cognitive hiccup of all time. I had a boss for a year that I had nicknamed "Lemon Juice" (see the story on the burglar that triggered the research on this topic). Unfortunately, in the organisation where I work it was easier to keep them on board until their contract expired after 12 months than to do all the paperwork required to terminate them early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

Learning about this cognitive flaw has made me a bit concerned about my own stupidity...just how stupid am I, really? :)
“The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone."

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1861
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:57 pm

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is definitely a thing. The Imposter Syndrome, I am more skeptical about...

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:12 pm

Yeah, that reminds me of the Peter Principle but in reverse, which I've seen in action a few times but not often enough to trust the concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Fruitzilla
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:44 am

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Fruitzilla » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:29 pm

I'd say this effect is operative for all of us in areas we are unskilled in. From my experience it's especially operative for people who really do excel in a specific area.
And as for being unpleasant to be around and constantly lecturing people.. Say no more, say no more!

Kunzang
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Kunzang » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:31 pm

If someone tells you that you don't understand the Dunning-Kruger Effect, but you're certain you do, how can you be sure you're not falling prey to the dreaded DKE?


http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/ ... -and-isnt/

Dunning himself shows up in the comments section to take exception to some of the blog author's criticism but finishes his comment by noting that "The blog author is correct in describing what the original effect is–poor performers are overly confident relative to their actual performance. They are not more confident than high performers."

The point is many people use this concept but don't really understand it themselves.
Last edited by Kunzang on Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Critics slap labels on you and then expect you to talk inside their terms. - Doris Lessing

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8052
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:34 pm

Learning about this cognitive flaw has made me a bit concerned about my own stupidity...just how stupid am I, really? :)
Same here, but I figure the cat's out of the bag anyway, so run with it.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 5:53 am
Location: California

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Mkoll » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:50 pm

I see this in some university students who want to become doctors, despite the fact that their intelligence and motivation are not good enough to do well at the job. It scares me because some of these folks might be just smart and motivated enough to scrape by and attain their professional certification, but would do a mediocre job when actually working and thus endanger other people's lives. This is where bad doctors come from.

You could apply that idea to any position, minus the endangering lives part in most cases. Causes hassle and headache for everybody...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:02 am

There are multiple levels of misunderstanding in the last few posts - on all sides including mine, I'm sorry to say. :emb:
Let's just quietly move on. And let's return to the topic, which is the Dunning-Kruger Effect - not Jundo Cohen or any of his doings.

:thanks:
Kim


User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:24 am

I love the fact that one of the people that inspired the research into this problem was a bank robber who was utterly convinced that if his face was smeared with lemon juice, then his image couldn't be picked up by bank security cameras. Even after he had been arrested and shown the footage of him robbing banks, (evidence which was used to convict him) he remained convinced of the effectiveness of the technique.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

emaho
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by emaho » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 am

I like this short explanation by John Cleese:

phpBB [video]
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

Daizan
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Daizan » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:55 pm

Image

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8052
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:29 pm

Daizan wrote:Image
Attachments
sophm.jpg
sophm.jpg (34.96 KiB) Viewed 2030 times
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:37 pm

This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread. The D-K hypothesis is a useful idea insofar as it sheds some light on a phenomenon in the world.

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:41 pm

Daizan wrote:Image
I dunno. I'm just some idiot on the internet--no title, no authority, no followers, and no brand to defend. :shrug:

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:43 pm

Please refer to this thread for further elucidation of the topic!

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=22045
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Daizan
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Daizan » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:11 pm

DGA wrote:This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread.
Not the only point, but you know that. :)

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:40 pm

Daizan wrote:
DGA wrote:This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread.
Not the only point, but you know that. :)
I went back and read my first post in this thread, and it seems to me that you have a point. I should have said:

This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind and human behavior, particularly the tendency toward miscommunication and misunderstandings among people. That's my point in this thread.

Daizan
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by Daizan » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:56 pm

I would find it more useful if there were a better explanation of why this phenomena occurs, or why studies in social science have shown that Americans have a tendency toward conceit. Does it have something to do with our strong cultural value of individuality?

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:43 pm

Daizan wrote:I would find it more useful if there were a better explanation of why this phenomena occurs
it's just a species of obscuration, one particular flavor of samsara. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... scurations
studies in social science have shown that Americans have a tendency toward conceit. Does it have something to do with our strong cultural value of individuality?
have they? I'd be interested in reading some of those studies.

I'm not convinced that Americans are any more or less conceited than, say, Canadians, or anyone else--although maybe conceited in a different way.

Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests