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Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:34 pm
by DGA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

This is one of the more interesting problems in learning and communicating. It goes like this: incompetent people often find themselves overestimating the value of their own contributions, their status, and their abilities and knowledge because, by virtue of being incompetent, they don't know what competence is.

they have a difficult time relating to competent and capable people because they don't understand what differentiates the sheep from the goats--i.e., why does so-and-so get the raises and promotions, while I'm stuck here on probation? Again, because they don't know what competence, much less excellence, is they misjudge those around them, and consequently become resentful, spiteful, and just unpleasant to be around.

Which is to say that stupidity is not only a deficit in learning, but also a barrier to learning. Not knowing you're stupid is a special kind of stupidity because you don't know you're stupid, and consequently try to educate others instead of seeking out a remedy to your own stupidity.

Moderator note: Let's just keep this topic centered on the issue at hand and not people who are no longer able to defend themselves.

:coffee:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:43 pm
by GDPR_Anonymized001
Dunning-Kruger is my absolute favorite cognitive hiccup of all time. I had a boss for a year that I had nicknamed "Lemon Juice" (see the story on the burglar that triggered the research on this topic). Unfortunately, in the organisation where I work it was easier to keep them on board until their contract expired after 12 months than to do all the paperwork required to terminate them early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

Learning about this cognitive flaw has made me a bit concerned about my own stupidity...just how stupid am I, really? :)

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:57 pm
by Thomas Amundsen
The Dunning-Kruger Effect is definitely a thing. The Imposter Syndrome, I am more skeptical about...

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:12 pm
by DGA
Yeah, that reminds me of the Peter Principle but in reverse, which I've seen in action a few times but not often enough to trust the concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:29 pm
by Fruitzilla
I'd say this effect is operative for all of us in areas we are unskilled in. From my experience it's especially operative for people who really do excel in a specific area.
And as for being unpleasant to be around and constantly lecturing people.. Say no more, say no more!

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:31 pm
by Kunzang
If someone tells you that you don't understand the Dunning-Kruger Effect, but you're certain you do, how can you be sure you're not falling prey to the dreaded DKE?


http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/ ... -and-isnt/

Dunning himself shows up in the comments section to take exception to some of the blog author's criticism but finishes his comment by noting that "The blog author is correct in describing what the original effect is–poor performers are overly confident relative to their actual performance. They are not more confident than high performers."

The point is many people use this concept but don't really understand it themselves.

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:34 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
Learning about this cognitive flaw has made me a bit concerned about my own stupidity...just how stupid am I, really? :)
Same here, but I figure the cat's out of the bag anyway, so run with it.

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:50 pm
by Mkoll
I see this in some university students who want to become doctors, despite the fact that their intelligence and motivation are not good enough to do well at the job. It scares me because some of these folks might be just smart and motivated enough to scrape by and attain their professional certification, but would do a mediocre job when actually working and thus endanger other people's lives. This is where bad doctors come from.

You could apply that idea to any position, minus the endangering lives part in most cases. Causes hassle and headache for everybody...

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:02 am
by Kim O'Hara
There are multiple levels of misunderstanding in the last few posts - on all sides including mine, I'm sorry to say. :emb:
Let's just quietly move on. And let's return to the topic, which is the Dunning-Kruger Effect - not Jundo Cohen or any of his doings.

:thanks:
Kim


Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:24 am
by Wayfarer
I love the fact that one of the people that inspired the research into this problem was a bank robber who was utterly convinced that if his face was smeared with lemon juice, then his image couldn't be picked up by bank security cameras. Even after he had been arrested and shown the footage of him robbing banks, (evidence which was used to convict him) he remained convinced of the effectiveness of the technique.

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 am
by emaho
I like this short explanation by John Cleese:

phpBB [video]

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:55 pm
by Daizan
Image

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:29 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
Daizan wrote:Image

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:37 pm
by DGA
This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread. The D-K hypothesis is a useful idea insofar as it sheds some light on a phenomenon in the world.

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:41 pm
by DGA
Daizan wrote:Image
I dunno. I'm just some idiot on the internet--no title, no authority, no followers, and no brand to defend. :shrug:

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:43 pm
by Grigoris
Please refer to this thread for further elucidation of the topic!

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=22045

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:11 pm
by Daizan
DGA wrote:This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread.
Not the only point, but you know that. :)

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:40 pm
by DGA
Daizan wrote:
DGA wrote:This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind. That's my point in this thread.
Not the only point, but you know that. :)
I went back and read my first post in this thread, and it seems to me that you have a point. I should have said:

This is one of those instances where scientists have something useful to say about the mind and human behavior, particularly the tendency toward miscommunication and misunderstandings among people. That's my point in this thread.

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:56 pm
by Daizan
I would find it more useful if there were a better explanation of why this phenomena occurs, or why studies in social science have shown that Americans have a tendency toward conceit. Does it have something to do with our strong cultural value of individuality?

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:43 pm
by DGA
Daizan wrote:I would find it more useful if there were a better explanation of why this phenomena occurs
it's just a species of obscuration, one particular flavor of samsara. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... scurations
studies in social science have shown that Americans have a tendency toward conceit. Does it have something to do with our strong cultural value of individuality?
have they? I'd be interested in reading some of those studies.

I'm not convinced that Americans are any more or less conceited than, say, Canadians, or anyone else--although maybe conceited in a different way.