Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

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Johnny Dangerous
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Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:35 pm

https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-bri ... il-voting/

Not sure where I sit with this, but he makes some very good points IMO, especially where he points out that voting should be given less precedence than other sorts of political activity, and that political activity should not be determined by election cycles (duh). Additionally, I have always thought that voting for people who see themselves on the left outside of the establishment should basically be a tactical decision, not an ideological one.
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:27 pm

:twothumbsup:
I'm with Chomsky.

:jedi:
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:51 am

Sadhu sadhu!

Thank goodness for Prof Chomsky talking some sense into the Bernie Bros.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:19 am

Salient paragraphs:

3. 'One of these candidates, Trump, denies the existence of global warming, calls for increasing use of fossil fuels, dismantling of environmental regulations and refuses assistance to India and other developing nations as called for in the Paris agreement, the combination of which could, in four years, take us to a catastrophic tipping point. Trump has also pledged to deport 11 million Mexican immigrants, offered to provide for the defense of supporters who have assaulted African American protestors at his rallies, stated his “openness to using nuclear weapons”, supports a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. and regards “the police in this country as absolutely mistreated and misunderstood” while having “done an unbelievable job of keeping law and order.” Trump has also pledged to increase military spending while cutting taxes on the rich, hence shredding what remains of the social welfare “safety net” despite pretenses.

4) The suffering which these and other similarly extremist policies and attitudes will impose on marginalized and already oppressed populations has a high probability of being significantly greater than that which will result from a Clinton presidency.

5) (4) should constitute sufficient basis to voting for Clinton...

Likewise - why are big business interests tending to support Clinton? It's not because of 'liking Hillary' - it's because the alternative is disaster.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:43 am

Trump is just not capable of wreaking the havoc everyone fears. However, there is one solid argument for voting for Clinton, and that is to humliate Trump.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by dreambow » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:16 pm

It doesn't really matter who you vote for as both these candidates with nostrils flared have sniffed the air and can sense the force......power is such an aphrodisiac! "Nothing so endangers the fineness of the human heart as the possession of power over others; nothing so corrodes it as the callous and cruel exercise of that power; and the more helpless the creature over whom the power is cruelly and callously exercised, the more the human heart is corroded" John Galsworthy

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by WeiHan » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:13 pm

However much many of you here may hate Donald Trump, computer simulation is showing that Trump could reach the highest percentage of the popular votes, which could be more than anyone in history even surpassing FDR in the Great Depression.

But no, he won't be able to change anything. Political change is surely coming and he is just the bridge of lesser resistance to this coming huge change. Clinton will be a huge obstruction to this change.

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by DGA » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:20 pm

WeiHan wrote:However much many of you here may hate Donald Trump, computer simulation is showing that Trump could reach the highest percentage of the popular votes, which could be more than anyone in history even surpassing FDR in the Great Depression.
Source?
But no, he won't be able to change anything. Political change is surely coming and he is just the bridge of lesser resistance to this coming huge change. Clinton will be a huge obstruction to this change
:alien:

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:24 pm

WeiHan wrote:However much many of you here may hate Donald Trump, computer simulation is showing that Trump could reach the highest percentage of the popular votes, which could be more than anyone in history even surpassing FDR in the Great Depression.

But no, he won't be able to change anything. Political change is surely coming and he is just the bridge of lesser resistance to this coming huge change. Clinton will be a huge obstruction to this change.
You need to go to fivethirtyeight.com.

There is 0 chance Trump will win the popular vote. Well, not quite true, there is a 35 percent chance...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by WeiHan » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote:However much many of you here may hate Donald Trump, computer simulation is showing that Trump could reach the highest percentage of the popular votes, which could be more than anyone in history even surpassing FDR in the Great Depression.

But no, he won't be able to change anything. Political change is surely coming and he is just the bridge of lesser resistance to this coming huge change. Clinton will be a huge obstruction to this change.
You need to go to fivethirtyeight.com.

There is 0 chance Trump will win the popular vote. Well, not quite true, there is a 35 percent chance...
This one should be easy to check because it will just be a few months time for the result to be out.

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:50 pm

Still not voting for a warmonger of any stripe.
There is only one peace candidate.
what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences
Perhaps I misread the article, but I posit that this is status quo thinking, and that no one is beholden to vote contrary to their "individual self-expression".
To blame people who vote outside the two parties as complicit in an outcome one side finds unfavorable is the behavior of a sore loser who willingly participates in a game producing sore losers.
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:11 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:Still not voting for a warmonger of any stripe.
There is only one peace candidate.
what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences
Perhaps I misread the article, but I posit that this is status quo thinking, and that no one is beholden to vote contrary to their "individual self-expression".
To blame people who vote outside the two parties as complicit in an outcome one side finds unfavorable is the behavior of a sore loser who willingly participates in a game producing sore losers.

If you read the article, he's not blaming anyone.

He does address the idea that voting shouldn't be viewed as some form of self-expression, more like simply a tactical choice for people who see themselves as "on the left", and with no illusions about the weakness of our democracy. He is addressing possible outcomes of the "voting your conscience" idea in light of how things actually play out. Not sure if I agree with him fully, but he makes some very good points.
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:23 pm

I tried to read the article but have comprehension challenges with dense prose.
Interesting thread in any case :emb:
Amitābha Buddha!

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:46 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:I tried to read the article but have comprehension challenges with dense prose.
Interesting thread in any case :emb:
What he is saying is that in essence, there are real world consequences in elections. If one votes only as a form of self-expression, and totally ignore the real world consequences, many people (and in this particular case, the planet) can suffer as a result. We have a real world example of this in Bush vs Gore.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:52 pm

Electoral politics is a crock. What counts is movements.
Political campaigns are not social movements. Even great campaigns like those of Jackson in the 80s, Obama in the recent past or Sanders today are not social movements. We must distinguish between social momentums, social rebellions and social movements. Given the massive national security state and the pervasive carceral state, social movements are rare -- past, present and future. The American Empire is more ripe for a counter-revolution than revolution, for right-wing movements than left-wing ones. This is so primarily because of the deep xenophobic roots in the country and profound militaristic sentiments in the culture. Hence, progressive social momentums and chaotic social rebellions are more likely to reshape our priorities and gain some concessions from greedy elites and callous citizens. This is why moral and spiritual dimensions of social activism are crucial -- to sustain our will to fight inside and outside the system with little chance of immediate victory!
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/3648 ... -to-an-end
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:49 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote:I tried to read the article but have comprehension challenges with dense prose.
Interesting thread in any case :emb:
What he is saying is that in essence, there are real world consequences in elections. If one votes only as a form of self-expression, and totally ignore the real world consequences, many people (and in this particular case, the planet) can suffer as a result. We have a real world example of this in Bush vs Gore.
Thank you.
To me it seems then one simply abhors the "real-world consequences" of the football team one does not support :shrug:
I'm personally weary of these games of personality and culture wars.
Amitābha Buddha!

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

Free Pure Land Buddhism resources

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:27 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote:I tried to read the article but have comprehension challenges with dense prose.
Interesting thread in any case :emb:
What he is saying is that in essence, there are real world consequences in elections. If one votes only as a form of self-expression, and totally ignore the real world consequences, many people (and in this particular case, the planet) can suffer as a result. We have a real world example of this in Bush vs Gore.
Thank you.
To me it seems then one simply abhors the "real-world consequences" of the football team one does not support :shrug:
I'm personally weary of these games of personality and culture wars.
You can't compare the two obviously, since the consequences for the choice of football team is inconsequential compared to the president of a country with enormous power.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:39 pm

Not the best metaphor, but if both sides are what the others say they are, then why vote for either?
I feel this way because candidates with comparatively cleaner histories and better ideas have either recently or long since been left by the wayside.
At least Trump won by popular vote without the help of laundered campaign money and insider baseball machinations.

You know what they say about the rat race :rolleye:
Amitābha Buddha!

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

Free Pure Land Buddhism resources

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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:51 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:Not the best metaphor, but if both sides are what the others say they are, then why vote for either?
As a tactical way of getting the outcome you desire, nothing more, nothing less. Not every decision is some big emotional "make or break" moment, sometimes you just choose what you choose based on how things sit at the time and move on.
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Re: Chomsky on Lesser Evil Voting

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote:Not the best metaphor, but if both sides are what the others say they are, then why vote for either?
As a tactical way of getting the outcome you desire, nothing more, nothing less.
And if you desire neither option?
I suppose that's what the article explores, though it reaches a different conclusion than I personally have.
Amitābha Buddha!

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

Free Pure Land Buddhism resources

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