If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

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tellyontellyon
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by tellyontellyon » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:40 pm

Do we have to say which tradition is better?

The best tradition for me is the one I can stick to and practice rather than wave in other peoples faces.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by M.G. » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:29 pm

If you see siddhis on the side of the road, kill them.

Honestly, worrying about siddhis is the absolute worst trap Westerners, or even Easterners, involved in dharma can get hung up on.

I say this as someone who actually got involved in Tibetan Buddhism partly because of the Vajrayana's sophisticated understanding of paranornal phenomena. (In hindsight, probably not the best of reasons.)

They're real enough. That's all anyone interested in the topic should care about. Once we get hung up on comparing siddhis as between traditions, or discussing siddhis as a way of gauging attainment, we've already fallen way, way off the path.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:57 am

Read the biography's of Milarepa, Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava.

In the biography of Yeshe Tsogyal I read recently there was a pretty cool contest of siddhis between Guru padma, tsogyal, vimalamitra and vairochana vs Bön priests, which was pretty spectacular. The buddhists won hands down.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by dzoki » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:17 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.
Maybe you should follow a path that you have confidence in, rather then having need to criticize vajrayana and especially Padmasambhava and his teachings and tertons. It is not really meaningful and a waste of time. Don't you think? Isn't it much better to spend time cultivating samadhi than endlessly discussing things, criticizing and collecting concepts about many things?

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:50 pm

AlexanderS wrote:The buddhists won hands down.
Of course, the victors write the history.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:The buddhists won hands down.
Of course, the victors write the history.
Naturally. There is also a story in Tsogyals biography where she brings back a young man from the dead.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:16 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:The buddhists won hands down.
Of course, the victors write the history.
Naturally. There is also a story in Tsogyals biography where she brings back a young man from the dead.
Yes, her consort, Atsara Tsele. History is a kind of consciousness. Not an objective recitation of facts.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course, the victors write the history.
Naturally. There is also a story in Tsogyals biography where she brings back a young man from the dead.
Yes, her consort, Atsara Tsele. History is a kind of consciousness. Not an objective recitation of facts.
I know, but the OP was asking for stories of vajrayana masters performing miracles. Whether they are all or mostly made up or they happened in real "factual manner" I don't know. I believe in the contest of miracles between the buddhists and the bön priests, even Guru Padma distinguishes between siddhis which can be witnessed by everyone and those than can be experienced only by those to posess clairvoiance. But I don't have the book at hand, so maybe it was the author who wrote that.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:41 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Naturally. There is also a story in Tsogyals biography where she brings back a young man from the dead.
Yes, her consort, Atsara Tsele. History is a kind of consciousness. Not an objective recitation of facts.
I know, but the OP was asking for stories of vajrayana masters performing miracles. Whether they are all or mostly made up or they happened in real "factual manner" I don't know. I believe in the contest of miracles between the buddhists and the bön priests, even Guru Padma distinguishes between siddhis which can be witnessed by everyone and those than can be experienced only by those to posess clairvoiance. But I don't have the book at hand, so maybe it was the author who wrote that.

Relative truth is pretty flexible since it is essentially based in misconceptions about things.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:53 pm

My daydreams when I read stories of great siddhas are very much like similar to patrick stewarts.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3uir5 ... shortfilms

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:59 pm

M.G. wrote:They're real enough. That's all anyone interested in the topic should care about.
People are interested in siddhis.

There is even an academic book about siddhis, with well known indologists.

https://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Powers-Bril ... 9004212140

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:36 am

The Buddha discouraged the display of psychic powers to others, one of the reasons being that people without faith and conviction will be bedazzled by them and draw the wrong conclusions.
DN 11 wrote:"And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:17 am

Mkoll wrote:The Buddha discouraged the display of psychic powers to others, one of the reasons being that people without faith and conviction will be bedazzled by them and draw the wrong conclusions.
DN 11 wrote:"And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.
Exactly. The Buddha does not display miraculous accomplishments for his own enjoyment, nor for the enjoyment of others, nor does he display them to merely impress, nor to bedazzle, it is always a teaching action, motivated by the compassion of opening the Buddhadharma to the worldling. That is my take on matters anyways. I don't know if there are any teachers greater than I who say similar things or if it is in the literature. I think thats a rather easy and general conclusion to reach after being exposed to the Buddhadharma though. Maybe I am wrong.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:24 pm

I personally think real life siddhi's have great value in the time we live in. Perhaps in parts of the world where people are naturally superstitious they don't, and of course having some siddhi doesn't necessarily mean you are slightest bit enlightened. But having grown up in a western secular country, I was very disenchanted by the lack of "real" magic in the world and the fact the you will mostly be looked down upon if you are sincerely spiritual or religious. It wasn't until I met teachers and advanced practioners who manifested siddhi that I started buying into the whole idea that mind is more than just a product of the body and buddhism indeed is a truly profound path. I did not want enter a path that requires so much commitment if everything is lost at death. I think evidence of mind beyond matter and a glimpe into a magical reality is exactly something we need in a western world which has become overly materialistic nihilistic.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by M.G. » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:25 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
M.G. wrote:They're real enough. That's all anyone interested in the topic should care about.
People are interested in siddhis.

There is even an academic book about siddhis, with well known indologists.

https://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Powers-Bril ... 9004212140
They're certainly more fun to spin yarns about than baseball statistics or Donald Trump's economic plans. Half of American popular culture seems to revolve around narratives about people acquiring them.

I'm not convinced that discussions about siddhis are useful for serious practitioners, though, especially when we start gaming siddhis demonstrated by teachers in one tradition as opposed to another. (Which, honestly, sounds much more likely to lead to pointless anger and slander than any kind of meaningful exchange.)

It can be useful for practitioners to see siddhis demonstrated by a legit. teacher at some point, so that one knows they're real and that mundanely perceived reality is a limited thing. Once one genuinely knows that that dimension of reality exists I'm not sure how much more can usefully be said on the topic.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:22 am

AlexanderS wrote:I personally think real life siddhi's have great value in the time we live in. Perhaps in parts of the world where people are naturally superstitious they don't, and of course having some siddhi doesn't necessarily mean you are slightest bit enlightened. But having grown up in a western secular country, I was very disenchanted by the lack of "real" magic in the world and the fact the you will mostly be looked down upon if you are sincerely spiritual or religious. It wasn't until I met teachers and advanced practioners who manifested siddhi that I started buying into the whole idea that mind is more than just a product of the body and buddhism indeed is a truly profound path. I did not want enter a path that requires so much commitment if everything is lost at death. I think evidence of mind beyond matter and a glimpe into a magical reality is exactly something we need in a western world which has become overly materialistic nihilistic.
:good:

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Kras » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:37 pm

I think that if someone has to see magical powers to reflect on his life and to try to practice his mind to be less of a hindrance to others, then this is exactly the person NOT to show those powers to.
:anjali:

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexanderS » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:13 pm

:spy:
Kras wrote:I think that if someone has to see magical powers to reflect on his life and to try to practice his mind to be less of a hindrance to others, then this is exactly the person NOT to show those powers to.
:anjali:
Do you not think nihilists would seriously reconsider their paradigme if they witnessed an undistuable display of siddhi?

The buddha showed of his powers in sri lanka too

It is my wish that the west is filled with real male and female siddhas who can tear apart the doctrines nihillistic materialism

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Indrajala » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:10 am

Malcolm wrote:History is a kind of consciousness. Not an objective recitation of facts.
It can never be entirely objective, but you can approach the study of the past scientifically, gathering and evaluating evidence to support a thesis. Philology is useful in this regard as one can compare and contrast textual sources, and then let the texts tell their own story, so to speak.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by tingdzin » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:31 pm

AlexanderS wrote:In the biography of Yeshe Tsogyal I read recently there was a pretty cool contest of siddhis between Guru padma, tsogyal, vimalamitra and vairochana vs Bön priests, which was pretty spectacular. The buddhists won hands down.
The Bonpo histories say they won. In fact, there was probably actually never such a contest at all, as a couple of Tibetologists who have compared the relevant literature on both sides have pointed out.

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