If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

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If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:04 pm

If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:02 am

:popcorn:
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:31 am

I'll bite then :rolling:

Is inserting Lila into walls, flying on sunbeams and eating rocks not enough for you? You can read more on treasury of lives for one's just linked to padmasambhava.

Also, as far as I'm concerned having a vision of a deity shows a lot of skill in their practice of that deity and their realisations. For example Tsongkhapa spoke to Manjushri whereas I find it difficult to visualise Manjushri.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by anjali » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:34 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?
A provocative topic title, but perhaps it's workable if we can stay focused on the essential points? Great masters within Vajrayana have displayed siddhis, but so have Hindu yogis, and even Christian saints. I think pretty much all the different Buddhist traditions hold that merely displaying siddhis is not a dependable indicator of deep accomplishment. Do you hold a different view?

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:25 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:I'll bite then :rolling:

Is inserting Lila into walls, flying on sunbeams and eating rocks not enough for you? You can read more on treasury of lives for one's just linked to padmasambhava.
If you go that early, all that stuff is hagiography.

Why not something past the year 1700?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Boomerang » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:34 am

Vajrayana Buddhists have people who control the weather as a job. Not a one-time inexplicable miracle, but a job that they do repeatedly. I have a biographical book called The Rainmaker by Marsha Woolf about one such person.

There is also a book called Siddhas of Ga which has stories of various Tibetan siddhas who lived in this past century.

anjali is right, by the way. Worldly devas can display great magical feats, but there's nothing holy about them.
Last edited by Boomerang on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:04 am

Boomerang wrote:Vajrayana Buddhists have people who control the weather as a job. Not a one-time inexplicable miracle, but a job that they do repeatedly. I have a biographical book called The Rainmaker by Marsha Woolf about one such person.
Controlling the weather is not as impressive as flying through the air or walking through walls.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Boomerang » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:15 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Boomerang wrote:Vajrayana Buddhists have people who control the weather as a job. Not a one-time inexplicable miracle, but a job that they do repeatedly. I have a biographical book called The Rainmaker by Marsha Woolf about one such person.
Controlling the weather is not as impressive as flying through the air or walking through walls.
I disagree that doing telekinesis on your body is inherently more impressive than doing telekinesis on the atmosphere. Anyways, there's at least one story of people flying in Siddhas of Ga, and in that same story solid objects dissolve into some people's bodies. And that's just one story.
Last edited by Boomerang on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:21 am

Boomerang wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
Boomerang wrote:Vajrayana Buddhists have people who control the weather as a job. Not a one-time inexplicable miracle, but a job that they do repeatedly. I have a biographical book called The Rainmaker by Marsha Woolf about one such person.
Controlling the weather is not as impressive as flying through the air or walking through walls.
I disagree that doing telekinesis on your body is inherently more impressive than doing telekinesis on the atmosphere. Anyways, there's at least one story of people flying in Siddhas of Ga, and in that same story solid objects dissolve into some people's bodies. And that's just one story.
Controlling the weather is based on manipulating spirits. It is not really a big deal.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:23 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:Why not something past the year 1700?
Browse treasury of lives, I'll find you some in the morning

But how do you not see control of the weather as impressive? Look at the life of Milarepa for example
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Boomerang » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:27 am

Rainbow body is another impressive feat that many have accomplished in the last century. I've also heard various accounts of contemporary practitioners who can read minds.

That being said, I don't believe a person's holiness should be measured by their siddhis. Many samsaric beings have siddhis or magic powers.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:53 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.
The real question is: why do you believe some stories and reject others?

As for your contentions about Vajrayana practices, passing through mountains, etc is part and parcel of the tradition.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Virgo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:24 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.
Merely having visions of deities? :rolling:

Isn't seeing Buddhas more favorable than walking through walls (that is what we have doors for)?

Isn't travelling to a Pure Land more favorable than diving into the ground?

Isn't recovering teachings written by a Buddha more favorable as well?

Besides many siddhis are possible.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:44 am

Malcolm wrote:As for your contentions about Vajrayana practices, passing through mountains, etc is part and parcel of the tradition.
And I want to read stories about the performance of such in the last 350 years.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:20 am

Apparently DM "could go back to the time of the Buddha and listen to his sermons". That must have been very interesting.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:20 am

BuddhaFollower wrote: fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.
birds, mold and earthworms do these things, so what?

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Apparently DM "could go back to the time of the Buddha and listen to his sermons". That must have been very interesting.
For sure.
Of course I can just go down the street and hear the same things being taught...

It reminds me of an old story I've heard many times. I don't know if it's from the sutras or even a buddhist story or what, but anyways:

There was a master who was lecturing to his disciples next to a river. On the other side of the river was another master, a yogi who thought he could show them a thing or two. The yogi levitated across the river and sat himself in from of the master and the disciples and said " it took me twenty years of mediation to be able to do that, what can you possibly teach?"
The master replied: "there is a boat that could take you in ten minutes"

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Boomerang » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:36 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:As for your contentions about Vajrayana practices, passing through mountains, etc is part and parcel of the tradition.
And I want to read stories about the performance of such in the last 350 years.
The fifth Dalai Lama was alive less than 350 years ago, so I can mention that there's a story of a contemporary of the fifth Dalai Lama flying in human form and transforming into a bird in The Rainmaker: The Story of Venerable Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche.
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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by shaunc » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:49 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.
Most people follow Buddhism, in its many and various forms because it helps them to live their lives in a way that is more beneficial for themselves, their families and friends and also for the community in general.
However if it's magic tricks you're after may I suggest a circus.
Don't fall into the trap of my sect/school is better than your sect/school. There's 84000 different types of Buddhism and 6 billion different types of people.
It's not one size fits all.

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Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Vasana » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:18 am

Shouldn't the supreme siddhi be the benchmark?
"The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –
As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,
May I truly practice the sublime teachings."
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