what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

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Ayu
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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Ayu » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:32 pm

I removed some meta-discussion disputes.
Back to topic, please.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by boda » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:10 pm

binocular wrote:Not all ad hominems are fallacious.
How do you figure?
Racism would probably be a far lesser problem if people would be more open and direct about it to begin with. It's racists hiding behind the masks of democracy and liberalism that make racism so persistent and resistant to any effort to undo it.
Rather it's human nature to take advantage when the opportunity to take advantage is available.

Fear mongering, if this is the "open and direct" dialogue you're talking about, only adds fuel to the flame of racism and helps to maintain the status quo.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Luke » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:51 am

The concept of "whiteness" in America lost a lot of its meaning for me ever since the majority of white Americans started listening to rap in the 90s and started adopting rap fashions and slang.

However, a person of any race can be "an honorary white American" in my eyes if they satisfy the following characteristics:
1) They hate rap music
2) They find Monty Python sketches funny and will admit this in public
3) They like sailing or at least like the idea of sailing

hehe

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Yavana » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:21 am

Luke wrote:The concept of "whiteness" in America lost a lot of its meaning for me ever since the majority of white Americans started listening to rap in the 90s and started adopting rap fashions and slang.

However, a person of any race can be "an honorary white American" in my eyes if they satisfy the following characteristics:
1) They hate rap music
2) They find Monty Python sketches funny and will admit this in public
3) They like sailing or at least like the idea of sailing

hehe
1) Some is alright and has a place on my playlist.
2) Good stuff.
3) I can understand the concept of going to great lengths to acquire a fortune and capture womenfolk, but I can't envision anyone sailing as a recreational activity.
Malcolm wrote:The United States was founded on three pillars: not capitalism, democracy and liberty, as many suppose, but rather, ethnic cleansing, genocide and human trafficking.

This needs to be honestly and openly addressed by our nation.
The people who actually carried those acts out are dead—and if we accept the doctrine of rebirth, we know that those individuals are now receiving the karmic retribution for their acts. Some of those people may actually be the individuals who now live as minorities filling the inner city without any education, adequate safety or financial prospects. (Or any other number of cliches that minority members who aren't my relatives actually fulfill.) As Buddhists, we have to leave the wrongs of the dead with the dead, not with their descendants. We also can't realistically expect to punish future generations for the sins of their ancestors and not expect them to eventually rise up in retribution. I'm sure that there are plenty of old white men who deserve to be hanged, drawn and quartered who are defecating themselves in nursing homes this very moment. Their descendants, however, are a different story, and the Buddha—as far as I'm aware—taught karmic retribution for individuals, not for bloodlines.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 am

Luke wrote:The concept of "whiteness" in America lost a lot of its meaning for me ever since the majority of white Americans started listening to rap in the 90s and started adopting rap fashions and slang.

However, a person of any race can be "an honorary white American" in my eyes if they satisfy the following characteristics:
1) They hate rap music
2) They find Monty Python sketches funny and will admit this in public
3) They like sailing or at least like the idea of sailing

hehe
The 90s weren't exactly the only time when it was popular to emulate black fashion to be hip :tongue:

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歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:49 pm

binocular wrote:It's precisely by depersonalizing an interaction...
Asking a person to supply facts to back their view is not an attempt to "depersonalise an interaction", it is what intelligent discussion is all about.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:00 pm

binocular wrote:It's racists hiding behind the masks of democracy and liberalism that make racism so persistent and resistant to any effort to undo it.
Yes, and such people are called Republicans.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:02 pm

binocular wrote:It's racists hiding behind the masks of democracy and liberalism that make racism so persistent and resistant to any effort to undo it.
So blatant jack-boot-wearing racist neo-Nazi types are preferable to democratic hypocrites?
Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:08 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
binocular wrote:It's racists hiding behind the masks of democracy and liberalism that make racism so persistent and resistant to any effort to undo it.
So blatant jack boot wearing racist neo-Nazi types are preferable to democratic hypocrites?
Sadly, it's increasingly hard to tell them apart, at least in the States. Look at these Nazis.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/whi ... vene-in-dc

https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/a-f ... tionalist/

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:10 pm

My grandfather was sent to Europe to help beat them down. Looks like it's going to fall to my kids to do the same here at home. :pig:

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:33 pm

boda wrote:
binocular wrote:Not all ad hominems are fallacious.
How do you figure?
Because sometimes, who says something has bearing on the value of what is being said.
For example, you automatically give credence to the words of your teacher, because he is your teacher; but you're more skeptical about what just someone on the internets says.
Another example, if you're not a doctor, but you want to perform surgery, and someone tells you that you can't and shouldn't because you're not a doctor, this is an ad hominem, but it is not a fallacious one.
Or, yet another example, a moderator's words at a forum like this automatically count for more than those of an ordinary poster, regardless of what the moderator says.
IOW, there are situations (and not just a few) in life where who says something is more important than what is being said.
Doug Walton, Canadian academic and author, has argued that ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, and that in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue,[8] as when it directly involves hypocrisy, or actions contradicting the subject's words.

The philosopher Charles Taylor has argued that ad hominem reasoning (discussing facts about the speaker or author relative to the value of his statements) is essential to understanding certain moral issues due to the connection between individual persons and morality (or moral claims), and contrasts this sort of reasoning with the apodictic reasoning (involving facts beyond dispute or clearly established) of philosophical naturalism.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Especially in religious matters, where so much comes down to a person's spiritual attainment and their particular empowerment, it should go without saying that an ad hominem is not automatically fallacious, nor are ad auctoritatem arguments automatically fallacious.

Fear mongering, if this is the "open and direct" dialogue you're talking about, only adds fuel to the flame of racism and helps to maintain the status quo.
Open and direct communication (it's most likely not going to be much of a dialogue, though) makes the boundaries between people clear, and then everyone has a much better idea how to act.

The problem with racism is that a racist wants two mutually exclusive things: 1. the racist despises persons of a particular race and wishes they wouldn't exist; and 2. the racist wants something from those people he despises and wishes they wouldn't exist (such as that they work for the racist, that they respect the racist).

As far as the attitude goes that racists have toward the people of a race they despise, racists have an internal psychological dynamics that is characteristic for some personality disorders, such as borderline personality disorder -- "I hate you, don't leave me."

If racists would simply despise or hate the people of a particular race, there wouldn't be much of a problem: both parties would see to it that they have as little to do with eachother as possible, and preferrably, nothing.
But the problem is that racists also want something from those they despise or hate, which is why it's so hard to deal with racists and for them to change.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by sillyrabbit » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:18 pm

binocular wrote:If racists would simply despise or hate the people of a particular race, there wouldn't be much of a problem: both parties would see to it that they have as little to do with eachother as possible, and preferrably, nothing.
This implies that the party hated by racists share the same desire to separate themselves. In my experience as a minority in the US, it is impossible to separate myself completely from the majority (of which racists you are describing are apart of) and still function in society, even if I wanted to. I'm not some masochist, but I still need to talk to a car insurance agent, or use some other service in which I may encounter a white person.

White people can insulate themselves from encountering minorities, and have. This locks minorities out of education, financial institutions, housing, employment, etc.

Seperatism is not a solution, it's just more of the same.
Namo Amitabha Buddha
:hug:

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by boda » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:26 pm

binocular wrote:
boda wrote:
binocular wrote:Not all ad hominems are fallacious.
How do you figure?
Because sometimes, who says something has bearing on the value of what is being said.
For example, you automatically give credence to the words of your teacher, because he is your teacher; but you're more skeptical about what just someone on the internets says.
So you could make a claim and validate it by simply pointing out that your teacher supports your claim? No.
Another example, if you're not a doctor, but you want to perform surgery, and someone tells you that you can't and shouldn't because you're not a doctor, this is an ad hominem, but it is not a fallacious one.
If making an argument that someone could save a persons life by cutting them open and doing something, you couldn't invalidate their argument by pointing out that they're not a doctor. It could be the case that they have superior knowledge and skill than most people with medical degrees but you couldn't appreciate or understand their argument.
Or, yet another example, a moderator's words at a forum like this automatically count for more than those of an ordinary poster, regardless of what the moderator says.
I'll assume you're being facetious.
IOW, there are situations (and not just a few) in life where who says something is more important than what is being said.
May I assume you're a Trump supporter?
Especially in religious matters, where so much comes down to a person's spiritual attainment and their particular empowerment, it should go without saying that an ad hominem is not automatically fallacious, nor are ad auctoritatem arguments automatically fallacious.
Religion does not value logic.
Fear mongering, if this is the "open and direct" dialogue you're talking about, only adds fuel to the flame of racism and helps to maintain the status quo.
Open and direct communication (it's most likely not going to be much of a dialogue, though) makes the boundaries between people clear, and then everyone has a much better idea how to act.
When you talk about making boundaries clear it sounds like segregation and the perpetuation of ignorance.
The problem with racism is that a racist wants two mutually exclusive things: 1. the racist despises persons of a particular race and wishes they wouldn't exist; and 2. the racist wants something from those people he despises and wishes they wouldn't exist (such as that they work for the racist, that they respect the racist).

As far as the attitude goes that racists have toward the people of a race they despise, racists have an internal psychological dynamics that is characteristic for some personality disorders, such as borderline personality disorder -- "I hate you, don't leave me."

If racists would simply despise or hate the people of a particular race, there wouldn't be much of a problem: both parties would see to it that they have as little to do with eachother as possible, and preferrably, nothing.
But the problem is that racists also want something from those they despise or hate, which is why it's so hard to deal with racists and for them to change.
The problem with racism is that the ignorant don't know they're ignorant. Racists are either opportunists, those who knowingly subjugate the disadvantaged, or pawns of the opportunists who ignorantly subscribe to their racist rhetoric, even though they have little or nothing to gain by it.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:02 pm

sillyrabbit wrote:
Seperatism is not a solution, it's just more of the same.
Indeed, separatists are not thinking clearly, if at all.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:16 pm

sillyrabbit wrote:This implies that the party hated by racists share the same desire to separate themselves.
It would be the sensible thing to do, yes.
However --
In my experience as a minority in the US, it is impossible to separate myself completely from the majority (of which racists you are describing are apart of) and still function in society, even if I wanted to. I'm not some masochist, but I still need to talk to a car insurance agent, or use some other service in which I may encounter a white person.
White people can insulate themselves from encountering minorities, and have. This locks minorities out of education, financial institutions, housing, employment, etc.
Seperatism is not a solution, it's just more of the same.
Saparation early enough is a solution. Don't stay where you are not appreciated. That's why I'll never go to Asia, and the Asians can stick their Asian supremacism somewhere.

But at this point, as far as white-black tensions such as in the US go, I don't think there is a solution, other than separation. I wish there would be a solution, but I'm afraid there just isn't one.

- - -
Malcolm wrote:Indeed, separatists are not thinking clearly, if at all.
What is your plan to reform the racists?

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:34 pm

boda wrote:So you could make a claim and validate it by simply pointing out that your teacher supports your claim? No.
Religious people do that all the time. Reference to authority is not automatically fallacious.
Another example, if you're not a doctor, but you want to perform surgery, and someone tells you that you can't and shouldn't because you're not a doctor, this is an ad hominem, but it is not a fallacious one.
If making an argument that someone could save a persons life by cutting them open and doing something, you couldn't invalidate their argument by pointing out that they're not a doctor. It could be the case that they have superior knowledge and skill than most people with medical degrees but you couldn't appreciate or understand their argument.
That would be a special case. I'm talking about things such as botched abortions performed by people who don't have the proper education for performing the procedure, even though they claim they are nevertheless capable of doing it.
Or, yet another example, a moderator's words at a forum like this automatically count for more than those of an ordinary poster, regardless of what the moderator says.
I'll assume you're being facetious.
Not at all. Since a moderator can delete what you say and even make it impossible for your words to come through at all by banning you, clearly, there is a power hierarchy in place and it directly affects the value of what is being said, depending on who says it.
IOW, there are situations (and not just a few) in life where who says something is more important than what is being said.
May I assume you're a Trump supporter?
No, you may not.
Religion does not value logic.
Oh dear.
When you talk about making boundaries clear it sounds like segregation and the perpetuation of ignorance.
Ignorance of what?

I have been the target of some Asian supremacism. For example, I've had a Hindu have a go at me because I am white. And I wasn't even in his country when it happened.
For me, the best solution is to stay away from Asia altogether. I see no reason to believe or hope that Hindu supremacists or Cambodian supremacists will ever change their ways.
The problem with racism is that the ignorant don't know they're ignorant. Racists are either opportunists, those who knowingly subjugate the disadvantaged, or pawns of the opportunists who ignorantly subscribe to their racist rhetoric, even though they have little or nothing to gain by it.
Again, ignorant of what?

That all people are inherently valuable because they are members of the human species, regardless of skin color?
Racists don't believe that.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:47 pm

binocular wrote:Not all ad hominems are fallacious.
When we refer to an "ad hominem" in English that is actually short for "the ad-hominem fallacy". If something is not a fallacy it cannot be an ad-hominem.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:23 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
binocular wrote:Not all ad hominems are fallacious.
When we refer to an "ad hominem" in English that is actually short for "the ad-hominem fallacy". If something is not a fallacy it cannot be an ad-hominem.
That's pop-philosophy English. I quoted references earlier on.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by boda » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:59 pm

binocular wrote:
boda wrote:So you could make a claim and validate it by simply pointing out that your teacher supports your claim? No.
Religious people do that all the time. Reference to authority is not automatically fallacious.
Another example, if you're not a doctor, but you want to perform surgery, and someone tells you that you can't and shouldn't because you're not a doctor, this is an ad hominem, but it is not a fallacious one.
If making an argument that someone could save a persons life by cutting them open and doing something, you couldn't invalidate their argument by pointing out that they're not a doctor. It could be the case that they have superior knowledge and skill than most people with medical degrees but you couldn't appreciate or understand their argument.
That would be a special case. I'm talking about things such as botched abortions performed by people who don't have the proper education for performing the procedure, even though they claim they are nevertheless capable of doing it.
Or, yet another example, a moderator's words at a forum like this automatically count for more than those of an ordinary poster, regardless of what the moderator says.
I'll assume you're being facetious.
Not at all. Since a moderator can delete what you say and even make it impossible for your words to come through at all by banning you, clearly, there is a power hierarchy in place and it directly affects the value of what is being said, depending on who says it.
You're missing the point. An ad hominem is fallacious because, for example, an appeal to authority does not validate or invalidate an argument logically. An ad hominem attach is fallacious because it does not address the argument and so fails to validate or invalidate the argument.

If you're unconcerned with logic and reason then sure, an ad hominem may be convincing for you.
The problem with racism is that the ignorant don't know they're ignorant. Racists are either opportunists, those who knowingly subjugate the disadvantaged, or pawns of the opportunists who ignorantly subscribe to their racist rhetoric, even though they have little or nothing to gain by it.
Again, ignorant of what?

That all people are inherently valuable because they are members of the human species, regardless of skin color? Racists don't believe that.
Not ignorant of that, no. Ignorant of many things, I imagine. Studies indicate that education is determinate in regard to racial prejudice. This is apparently confirmed by the recent US election results where Trump, who exhibits prejudicial attitudes in race and gender, overwhelmingly garnered the uneducated white vote. But there are other factors of course. Some people are naturally oriented towards following whatever social structure they live in, like herd animals.

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Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
binocular wrote:It's racists hiding behind the masks of democracy and liberalism that make racism so persistent and resistant to any effort to undo it.
Yes, and such people are called Republicans.
Good luck trying to switch the holodeck back on.

94% of the counties that voted for Obama either in 2008 or 2012 and 31% of the counties that voted for Obama *twice* - voted for Trump in 2016. That is, millions of Trump’s votes came from people who voted for the black guy with the Muslim name.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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