Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

Is the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) a deva?

The Abrahamic God might well have been a powerful deva of whom some historical memory is retained.
10
43%
The Abrahamic God (probably) does not exist but devāḥ (probably) do exist.
1
4%
The Abrahamic does not exist and neither do devāḥ.
1
4%
The Abrahamic God does exist but not as a devāḥ (i.e. the equivalent concept in Buddhism to "God" is not a deva, it is something else in Buddhist discourse that is closest to "God").
7
30%
This is a silly question and I refuse to play this diverting game even if it is just in the lounge.
4
17%
 
Total votes: 23

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:21 pm

Forgive my silly question, but its something I have been ruminating on for a while. I don't consider this a "serious question", it doesn't keep me up at night or anything, but I figured it might be interesting to post this in the lounge.

Do you believe that the Abrahamic "God", known by various names, Jevohah, Yahweh, Allah, Christ, Ik Onkar (occasionally), is a long-lived deva (possibly a figure similar to Mahābrahmā) who has interacted with humanity on account of, perhaps, living in the Desire Heaven/Kāmadhātu?

I realize many here may have atheistic or agnostic attitudes towards the existence or nonexistence of devāḥ, but it is an interesting question nonetheless...

Where does "God" in the foreign religious cosmological framework of Christian orthodoxy (or other Abrahamic orthodoxies), which is much smaller and more "contained" than Buddhist cosmology, "fit" into Buddhist cosmology and orthodoxy?

There are tons of answers to this question, because fundamentally, Abrahamic notions of "the One God" don't really jell, or "fit into", Buddhism, but it can be an interesting internet divertissement to speculate as to the various places the Abrahamic deity fits into Buddhist frameworks.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:28 pm

Abrahamic god is a preta.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
Are preta considered that powerful?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
Are preta considered that powerful?
Some are.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
Are preta considered that powerful?
Some are.
So why do you think the Abrahamic God might belong to the rank of preta rather than deva? This post was inspired by another post over at DhammaWheel that asserted that the Abrahamic God was Mára. Mára is a deva, yes? Or is Mára also a preta?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:42 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Are preta considered that powerful?
Some are.
So why do you think the Abrahamic God might belong to the rank of preta rather than deva? This post was inspired by another post over at DhammaWheel that asserted that the Abrahamic God was Mára. Mára is a deva, yes? Or is Mára also a preta?
Devas have no interest in human beings. To them we smell bad. Pretas on the other hands are very interested in human beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Some are.
So why do you think the Abrahamic God might belong to the rank of preta rather than deva? This post was inspired by another post over at DhammaWheel that asserted that the Abrahamic God was Mára. Mára is a deva, yes? Or is Mára also a preta?
Devas have no interest in human beings. To them we smell bad. Pretas on the other hands are very interested in human beings.
But don't devāḥ in the lowest heavens enjoy exercising power over the human world? Aren't they worshipped by humans, to good or bad effect, and engage in relations with them, for good or ill? Is Māra a deva? In traditional Buddhist narratives, he certainly takes interest in us, regardless of how he thinks we smell.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:So why do you think the Abrahamic God might belong to the rank of preta rather than deva? This post was inspired by another post over at DhammaWheel that asserted that the Abrahamic God was Mára. Mára is a deva, yes? Or is Mára also a preta?
Devas have no interest in human beings. To them we smell bad. Pretas on the other hands are very interested in human beings.
But don't devāḥ in the lowest heavens enjoy exercising power over the human world? Aren't they worshipped by humans, to good or bad effect, and engage in relations with them, for good or ill? Is Māra a deva? In traditional Buddhist narratives, he certainly takes interest in us, regardless of how he thinks we smell.

Māra is not a deva.

Devas do not interact with humans much.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:Māra is not a deva.

Devas do not interact with humans much.
Almost all of the Buddhist literature and Buddhist traditions I am familiar with consider Māra a deva, the Lord of the highst of the sense-pleasure heavens (kāmadhātavaḥ). Devaputramāra. On what grounds do you say he is not a deva?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17359
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:07 pm

I reckon he is an Asura. He certainly acts like one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:14 pm

I don't know about the abrahamic god.

But the story of jesus sounds like a preta who has been deified. Among chinese gods there are many who lived remarkable lives then died a violent or tragic death who then become deified and worshiped. The story of jesus is very similar. Is like the ghost becomes a god, a minor god, local god or official.
Ghosts are generally considered closer to the world then gods and therefore more involved. The the jade emperor vs the officials, who were deified after their deaths.
Grigoris wrote:I reckon he is an Asura. He certainly acts like one.
In stricly buddhist terms this sounds about right.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Māra is not a deva.

Devas do not interact with humans much.
Almost all of the Buddhist literature and Buddhist traditions I am familiar with consider Māra a deva, the Lord of the highst of the sense-pleasure heavens (kāmadhātavaḥ). Devaputramāra. On what grounds do you say he is not a deva?

Devaputra māra is not a person. It is pride. It is true that Papayin Māra is considered a deva.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Tārāmitra
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Tārāmitra » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:20 pm

This hypothesis positing that there is one single being behind every manifestation of “Abrahamic” religion is highly questionable. I don't think every practitioner of the multiple diverse forms of “Abrahamic” religion in actuality work with the same godform. In many cases, you could probably say that their ‘God’ is a māra, but I don't buy that Jesus’ God was a māra. Contemplative and mystical Christianity and Islamic mysticism (Sufism) has certainly produced a great many saintly humans with a powerful realization of love and compassion in the heart centre and the kind of spirituality that according to the Buddha Himself would lead to an effective union with the great god of Being, which in early Pali texts was affirmed by the Buddha to be possible—albeit not the supreme goal of His own Dharma—and which moreover is not essentially different from the goal of “Abrahamic” contemplative discipline and its way of love; though some, like Meister Eckhart or Ibn ‘Arabi, went even farther. That be as it may, religions like Christianity and Islam are, in their innermost and highest manifestations, not the product of pretas or māras. Even from a Buddhist perspective, they must be recognized as valid upaya up to a point. They may not make the great liberation or Buddhahood possible, but they may exercise a powerful beneficial influence and cause the qualities needed for the upward path to manifest. There are many who will not get any farther in this life with Buddhism than with, say, Christianity.
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:22 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:I don't know about the abrahamic god.

But the story of jesus sounds like a preta who has been deified. Among chinese gods there are many who lived remarkable lives then died a violent or tragic death who then become deified and worshiped. The story of jesus is very similar. Is like the ghost becomes a god, a minor god, local god or official.
Ghosts are generally considered closer to the world then gods and therefore more involved. The the jade emperor vs the officials, who were deified after their deaths.
Grigoris wrote:I reckon he is an Asura. He certainly acts like one.
In stricly buddhist terms this sounds about right.
This is fascinating!

Obviously there is also the assertion that Jesus is the unconditioned, the unborn, the first and the last, beginningless and endingless, identical to God, etc. An allegedly divine and unborn, also deathless, being who voluntarily let himself die for the specific purposes of allegedly "defeating death" through his harrowing of hell (after the death of the physical body) and his alleged bodily resurrection and entering into eternal deathlessness in the "New Jerusalem".

But that is not necessarily the figure everyone talks about when they talk about "Jesus/God". The Muslims and some Jews, for instance, believe that Jesus was merely a misunderstood prophet who died an ordinary death (the Muslims believe he was not crucified at all, and lived a good life in secret after someone else took his place on the cross, but that is a very late hagiography), and there is also the notion of a non-divine "historical Jesus", who was a human preacher without divine nature. Such a being could certainly be considered a preta, possibly.

I guess the issue is what statements about Jesus you consider canonical in Christianity, a foreign religion, and which you considered non-canonical.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Māra is not a deva.

Devas do not interact with humans much.
Almost all of the Buddhist literature and Buddhist traditions I am familiar with consider Māra a deva, the Lord of the highst of the sense-pleasure heavens (kāmadhātavaḥ). Devaputramāra. On what grounds do you say he is not a deva?

Devaputra māra is not a person. It is pride. It is true that Papayin Māra is considered a deva.
Yes, from a contemporary perspective, but many other Buddhists of the past, whose Buddhism was equally "authentic" as modern Buddhists' Buddhisms, have believe him to be a deva.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:26 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Almost all of the Buddhist literature and Buddhist traditions I am familiar with consider Māra a deva, the Lord of the highst of the sense-pleasure heavens (kāmadhātavaḥ). Devaputramāra. On what grounds do you say he is not a deva?

Devaputra māra is not a person. It is pride. It is true that Papayin Māra is considered a deva.
Yes, from a contemporary perspective, but many other Buddhists of the past, whose Buddhism was equally "authentic" as modern Buddhists' Buddhisms, have believe him to be a deva.

Devaputra māra is not a person, nor is kelśa māra and so on.

Papayin Māra on the other hand, is the character who plays a role in many sūtras, and he is a deva.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:27 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:This hypothesis positing that there is one single being behind every manifestation of “Abrahamic” religion is highly questionable. I don't think every practitioner of the multiple diverse forms of “Abrahamic” religion in actuality work with the same godform. In many cases, you could probably say that their ‘God’ is a māra, but I don't buy that Jesus’ God was a māra. Contemplative and mystical Christianity and Islamic mysticism (Sufism) has certainly produced a great many saintly humans with a powerful realization of love and compassion in the heart centre and the kind of spirituality that according to the Buddha Himself would lead to an effective union with the great god of Being, which in early Pali texts was affirmed by the Buddha to be possible—albeit not the supreme goal of His own Dharma—and which moreover is not essentially different from the goal of “Abrahamic” contemplative discipline and its way of love; though some, like Meister Eckhart or Ibn ‘Arabi, went even farther. That be as it may, religions like Christianity and Islam are, in their innermost and highest manifestations, not the product of pretas or māras. Even from a Buddhist perspective, they must be recognized as valid upaya up to a point. They may not make the great liberation or Buddhahood possible, but they may exercise a powerful beneficial influence and cause the qualities needed for the upward path to manifest. There are many who will not get any farther in this life with Buddhism than with, say, Christianity.
The notion that I sometimes entertain, is that these religions, the Abrahamic faiths, were founded by an occasionally beneficent, occasionally maleficent, deva or series of devāḥ, who interacted with humanity and taught them a teaching that was, at times, highly pure and wonderful. This deva might well truly believe that he is unborn, endless, etc, much like Mahābrahmā of the Pāli literature. Perhaps he is even influenced by the Buddhadharma, although I don't think it is likely he is a serious Buddhadharma practitioner if he exists, or is one single person/deva. In the oldest literature he is referred to as a plural.

This is just speculation though.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Devaputra māra is not a person. It is pride. It is true that Papayin Māra is considered a deva.
Yes, from a contemporary perspective, but many other Buddhists of the past, whose Buddhism was equally "authentic" as modern Buddhists' Buddhisms, have believe him to be a deva.

Devaputra māra is not a person, nor is kelśa māra and so on.

Papayin Māra on the other hand, is the character who plays a role in many sūtras, and he is a deva.
So "Paparin Māra" is a deva but Māra, in general, is not? Which figure appeared to torment the Buddha? This is the Māra that was referred to before. The anthropomorphic Māra that appears in ancient sūtrāṇi. This is the Māra that we are talking about, or that I was talking about at least, and was the Māra referred to in the DhammaWheel post that inspired this one.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28034
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Yes, from a contemporary perspective, but many other Buddhists of the past, whose Buddhism was equally "authentic" as modern Buddhists' Buddhisms, have believe him to be a deva.

Devaputra māra is not a person, nor is kelśa māra and so on.

Papayin Māra on the other hand, is the character who plays a role in many sūtras, and he is a deva.
So "Paparin Māra" is a deva but Māra, in general, is not? Which figure appeared to torment the Buddha? This is the Māra that was referred to before. The anthropomorphic Māra that appears in ancient sūtrāṇi. This is the Māra that we are talking about, or that I was talking about at least, and was the Māra referred to in the DhammaWheel post that inspired this one.

Papayin Māra is a Paranirmitavaśavartino deva, according to the Āryalaṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtravṛttitathāgatahṛdayālaṃkāra.

This is the character which appears in Sūtra. Māra in general refers to various kinds of obstacles on path, death, afflictions, pride, and the aggregates. These were the four māras that were conquered by the Buddha.

Papayin Māra though is a sort of divine fool, who constantly tries to make trouble for the Buddha but always fails miserably.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DNS » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:34 pm

לֹא תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵל

You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the lord, your god, am a jealous god

Exodus 20:5

Jealous of who? If there is only one, what is there to be jealous of? So, could be a jealous deva, asura or peta.

Locked

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Coëmgenu, mechashivaz, Meido, Norwegian, pemachophel, shaunc, steveb1, Wayfarer and 63 guests