Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

Is the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) a deva?

The Abrahamic God might well have been a powerful deva of whom some historical memory is retained.
10
43%
The Abrahamic God (probably) does not exist but devāḥ (probably) do exist.
1
4%
The Abrahamic does not exist and neither do devāḥ.
1
4%
The Abrahamic God does exist but not as a devāḥ (i.e. the equivalent concept in Buddhism to "God" is not a deva, it is something else in Buddhist discourse that is closest to "God").
7
30%
This is a silly question and I refuse to play this diverting game even if it is just in the lounge.
4
17%
 
Total votes: 23

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Konchog1
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Konchog1 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:54 am

Malcolm wrote:He proposed a principle. This does not preclude gyalpo worship existing side by side in the case of those who wished add some philosophical sophistication.

Basically, most religions, with the exception of Buddhadharma, begin as some kind of spirit worship.
Which comes first? The humans seeking magic or the spirits desiring worship?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:09 am

Wayfarer wrote:I don't know if this point has been brought up in this thread, but the original 'name' which since became 'Yahweh' and then also 'Jehovah' was called the 'tetragrammaton'. The Wiki article says that the name "YHWH" is probably derived from the Hebrew triconsonantal root היה (h-y-h), "to be", become, come to pass", with a third person masculine y- prefix, equivalent to English "he".
The name actually has an "I" prefix, hence it's rendering as "I am", which is allegedly what that entity said to Moses (I think) upon being asked his name. He is thus called "He is" in the Bible, but the name is technically "I am".

Incidentally Vishnu has a name that means basically the same thing, "beingness/entering" etc.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:42 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Which is allegedly what that entity said to Moses (I think) upon being asked his name...
I Am that I Am is the common English translation of the response God used in the Hebrew Bible when Moses asked for his name (Ex 3:14).

I've been meaning to ask - have you studied comparative religion - Mircea Eliade, and others of that ilk? I think, with the kinds of questions you're pursuing, you might find it very interesting.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:10 am

Wayfarer wrote:But it also mentions that the whole point of this name, consisting entirely of consonants, was that it couldn't be spoken,
Hebrew has no written vowels, this does not mean that the words are unpronounceable, just that you have to know the words and their context before you can read them. Persian is the same.

Y cn rd ths wth th vwls mssng, rght?

With a bit of effort of course. But if you were trained to read like this...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:14 am

Wayfarer wrote:In my view, many religious believers believe in a 'sky-father' type figure, and have essentially transposed Jehovah into the position formerly occupied by Jupiter, i.e. 'chief amongst Gods'. But I also think it is a very different kind of outlook or attitude to the one behind the 'tetragrammaton'.
Uuuuuuummmmmm... Judaism predates Roman religious forms by a few thousand years.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:28 am

The fact that the Tetragrammaton is not able to be pronounced was the main rationale for the name. It was literally intended to be a name that could not be spoken, so as to maintain the mystery of the divine name. (However, for students of comparative religion, there might be a parallel with the well-known Taoist aphorism that 'the Tao that can be named is not the real Tao.) The point about the name being transformed into 'Yahweh', and also into 'Jehovah', is that the strategy of the 'un-nameable' eventually lapsed (due to "popular demand", I imagine.)
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:36 am

Wayfarer wrote:The fact that the Tetragrammaton is not able to be pronounced was the main rationale for the name. It was literally intended to be a name that could not be spoken, so as to maintain the mystery of the divine name. (However, for students of comparative religion, there might be a parallel with the well-known Taoist aphorism that 'the Tao that can be named is not the real Tao.) The point about the name being transformed into 'Yahweh', and also into 'Jehovah', is that the strategy of the 'un-nameable' eventually lapsed (due to "popular demand", I imagine.)
By that metric, all Hebrew is designed to be unpronounceable, or Arabic, etc.

Something that better supports the "unspeakableness" of the name is that it is, in the oldest Bibles, preserved in a very ancient script called "Paleo-Hebrew", designed to mark it apart, since the rest of the Bible uses the familiar Aramaic letters Hebrew is written in today, as something not to be said, to be replaced with "Lord" or something of the like.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:34 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:By that metric, all Hebrew is designed to be unpronounceable, or Arabic, etc.
Arabic has written vowels, Persian does not. Persians borrow Arabic written vowels for transliteration of non-Persian terms/words.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

AlexanderS
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by AlexanderS » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
I remember a reading a post by you many years ago where you reckoned that good old Yahweh was Indra.

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:02 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
I remember a reading a post by you many years ago where you reckoned that good old Yahweh was Indra.
This is what some comparative religionists think. But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:By that metric, all Hebrew is designed to be unpronounceable, or Arabic, etc.
Arabic has written vowels, Persian does not. Persians borrow Arabic written vowels for transliteration of non-Persian terms/words.
As far as I know, all of the abjads, Hewbrew, Arabic, even Ancient Egyptian (when it is phonetic and acting as a pseudo-abjad), write out specifically their long vowels, and employ diacritics above or below the consonants for all other vowel-specifications, if it is needed.

Abjads adapted to non-Afroasiatic languages might very well write out all their vowels, like Persian, which I think is Indo-aryan, because the abjad is designed for languages that use consonantal roots (Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Egyptian, etc), and the consonantal root system is such that it is often unnecessary to write vowels at all. Indo-european languages probably require heavy adaptions of abjads to make them efficiently readable.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

AlexanderS
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by AlexanderS » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
I remember a reading a post by you many years ago where you reckoned that good old Yahweh was Indra.
This is what some comparative religionists think. But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
Ok. Do you put Jesus in the same class?

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by binocular » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
/.../ But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
What do you think Abrahamists (would) think of their God being characterized in this way?

Doesn't characterizing the Abrahamic God as a preta or gyalpo amount to "Badmouthing of other spiritual paths" according to the TOS here, which is not allowed?

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:57 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
I remember a reading a post by you many years ago where you reckoned that good old Yahweh was Indra.
This is what some comparative religionists think. But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
Ok. Do you put Jesus in the same class?
Jesus was just a guy. Nothing special.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:57 pm

binocular wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Abrahamic god is a preta.
/.../ But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
What do you think Abrahamists (would) think of their God being characterized in this way?

Doesn't characterizing the Abrahamic God as a preta or gyalpo amount to "Badmouthing of other spiritual paths" according to the TOS here, which is not allowed?
I don't much care what Abrahamists think of their god being characterized in this way. I am not talking to them and would not discuss this with them in any case since there is no common basis for a discussion at all.

Some gyalpos are tractable, others are not. In any case, I was responding to a question.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

AlexanderS
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by AlexanderS » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
This is what some comparative religionists think. But based on the sort of things old Jehovah wanted his people to do, gyalpo is a better fit.
Ok. Do you put Jesus in the same class?
Jesus was just a guy. Nothing special.
Is this based on your reading of the new testament?

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Malcolm
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:49 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Ok. Do you put Jesus in the same class?
Jesus was just a guy. Nothing special.
Is this based on your reading of the new testament?
That, and history.

But as I clarified before. I was not raised in a Christian household, so I do not have any residual traces that might cause me to think that Jesus was anything special.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by anjali » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:53 pm

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