Jiddu Krishnamurti

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dreambow
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Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by dreambow » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:21 am

“Once I asked Krishnamurti, ‘Why did you select this particular piece of
land for the Foundation?’ back came his reply, ‘Because, this is the land that the Buddha’s
feet first touched when he arrived in Kashi by boat, after his Enlightenment at Bodh Gaya!’
He did not stop there. He held me by my hand and took me to the exact spot where the
Buddha had placed his feet, bent down, touched it and remained silent for some time!’
I requested Upasaniji to show me the spot which remains unmarked and largely
unknown to this day. I felt blessed and prostrated. Since then, every time I visit and stay at
Rajghat, without fail I go at least once to that spot and prostrate, with the highest
veneration"
E book by V. Ganesan Meeting with sages and saints

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:20 pm

Kashi = Varanasi India - Foundation is next to Ganges river.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Aemilius
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Aemilius » Fri May 05, 2017 12:42 pm

You have to consider the processes of erosion, sedimentation, and gradual building up of new layers or strata, when you declare a spot to be "same" as a spot of earth 2500 years ago. Every year rainwater washes away land, maybe slowly, but in the course of time it amounts to significant measures. New particles of dust and sand are added by the wind every year. Dead leaves and debris are blown by the wind, they gradually form new strata on top of the old surface of the earth. In the course of time ancient towns and cities have been buried by natural processes.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 06, 2017 12:01 pm

Aemilius wrote:You have to consider the processes of erosion, sedimentation, and gradual building up of new layers or strata, when you declare a spot to be "same" as a spot of earth 2500 years ago. Every year rainwater washes away land, maybe slowly, but in the course of time it amounts to significant measures. New particles of dust and sand are added by the wind every year. Dead leaves and debris are blown by the wind, they gradually form new strata on top of the old surface of the earth. In the course of time ancient towns and cities have been buried by natural processes.
And?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Stefos
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Stefos » Sun May 14, 2017 4:39 am

dreambow wrote:“Once I asked Krishnamurti, ‘Why did you select this particular piece of
land for the Foundation?’ back came his reply, ‘Because, this is the land that the Buddha’s
feet first touched when he arrived in Kashi by boat, after his Enlightenment at Bodh Gaya!’
He did not stop there. He held me by my hand and took me to the exact spot where the
Buddha had placed his feet, bent down, touched it and remained silent for some time!’
I requested Upasaniji to show me the spot which remains unmarked and largely
unknown to this day. I felt blessed and prostrated. Since then, every time I visit and stay at
Rajghat, without fail I go at least once to that spot and prostrate, with the highest
veneration"
E book by V. Ganesan Meeting with sages and saints
Hi........since you brought up J. Krishnamurti, I'd like to share some things that you & others might appreciate.

Krishnamurti said a LOT of things that many people in the Buddhist forums would freak out over..........LOL.....particularly those of the gradual
school of perception and personal or inner change:

Examples:
He stressed Choiceless Awareness which is Naked Awareness (found in Dzogchen & Mahamudra) but without a motive.........In other words, No "fixed enlightenment" view.
He said to a group of Buddhists, "You think enlightenment is a fixed thing.......a goal....there is only an unfolding."

He also mentioned "occult powers" or siddhis as a result of Choiceless Awareness and the need to put them off to the side as not being the goal.
(See example #1)

He also stated that all spiritual views in the world are wrong...to include all branches of Buddhism because they are distortions of the teachers' original intent.

YouTube has a video of him & Chogyam Trungpa..............I suggest everyone watch it.

Stefos :anjali:

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun May 14, 2017 7:59 am

Stefos wrote:...

Hi........since you brought up J. Krishnamurti, I'd like to share some things that you & others might appreciate.

Krishnamurti said a LOT of things that many people in the Buddhist forums would freak out over..........LOL.....particularly those of the gradual
school of perception and personal or inner change:

Examples:
He stressed Choiceless Awareness which is Naked Awareness (found in Dzogchen & Mahamudra) but without a motive.........In other words, No "fixed enlightenment" view.
He said to a group of Buddhists, "You think enlightenment is a fixed thing.......a goal....there is only an unfolding."

He also mentioned "occult powers" or siddhis as a result of Choiceless Awareness and the need to put them off to the side as not being the goal.
(See example #1)

He also stated that all spiritual views in the world are wrong...to include all branches of Buddhism because they are distortions of the teachers' original intent.

YouTube has a video of him & Chogyam Trungpa..............I suggest everyone watch it.

Stefos :anjali:
Hi, Stefos,
There are several older threads here about Krishnamurti and most of the things you mention have already been discussed in them. Try -
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=3012
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=24456
or search the site for stray references to him (Google search Krishnamurti site:dharmawheel.net is better than the built-in site search).

:namaste:
Kim

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 14, 2017 9:26 am

dreambow wrote:“Once I asked Krishnamurti, ‘Why did you select this particular piece of
land for the Foundation?’ back came his reply, ‘Because, this is the land that the Buddha’s
feet first touched when he arrived in Kashi by boat, after his Enlightenment at Bodh Gaya!’
He did not stop there. He held me by my hand and took me to the exact spot where the
Buddha had placed his feet, bent down, touched it and remained silent for some time!’
I requested Upasaniji to show me the spot which remains unmarked and largely
unknown to this day. I felt blessed and prostrated. Since then, every time I visit and stay at
Rajghat, without fail I go at least once to that spot and prostrate, with the highest
veneration"
E book by V. Ganesan Meeting with sages and saints
The Buddha Shakyamuni is also considered an Avatar of Vishnu, a Christian Saint in Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism (St Josaphat), etc... So why would it seem strange that a "non-Buddhist" would show respect for the Buddha?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Anonymous X
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Anonymous X » Sun May 14, 2017 12:27 pm

Stefos wrote:
dreambow wrote:“Once I asked Krishnamurti, ‘Why did you select this particular piece of
land for the Foundation?’ back came his reply, ‘Because, this is the land that the Buddha’s
feet first touched when he arrived in Kashi by boat, after his Enlightenment at Bodh Gaya!’
He did not stop there. He held me by my hand and took me to the exact spot where the
Buddha had placed his feet, bent down, touched it and remained silent for some time!’
I requested Upasaniji to show me the spot which remains unmarked and largely
unknown to this day. I felt blessed and prostrated. Since then, every time I visit and stay at
Rajghat, without fail I go at least once to that spot and prostrate, with the highest
veneration"
E book by V. Ganesan Meeting with sages and saints
Hi........since you brought up J. Krishnamurti, I'd like to share some things that you & others might appreciate.

Krishnamurti said a LOT of things that many people in the Buddhist forums would freak out over..........LOL.....particularly those of the gradual
school of perception and personal or inner change:

Examples:
He stressed Choiceless Awareness which is Naked Awareness (found in Dzogchen & Mahamudra) but without a motive.........In other words, No "fixed enlightenment" view.
He said to a group of Buddhists, "You think enlightenment is a fixed thing.......a goal....there is only an unfolding."

He also mentioned "occult powers" or siddhis as a result of Choiceless Awareness and the need to put them off to the side as not being the goal.
(See example #1)

He also stated that all spiritual views in the world are wrong...to include all branches of Buddhism because they are distortions of the teachers' original intent.

YouTube has a video of him & Chogyam Trungpa..............I suggest everyone watch it.

Stefos :anjali:
Surprising that no one has mentioned U.G. Krishnamurti on this board. The two had a long and entwined history with each other.

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Aemilius
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Aemilius » Mon May 15, 2017 8:52 am

Grigoris wrote:
Aemilius wrote:You have to consider the processes of erosion, sedimentation, and gradual building up of new layers or strata, when you declare a spot to be "same" as a spot of earth 2500 years ago. Every year rainwater washes away land, maybe slowly, but in the course of time it amounts to significant measures. New particles of dust and sand are added by the wind every year. Dead leaves and debris are blown by the wind, they gradually form new strata on top of the old surface of the earth. In the course of time ancient towns and cities have been buried by natural processes.
And?
It is difficult to sum up geological processes in a few words. As this place Kashi is beside the river Ganges, you would have to consider the phenomenon of meandering, which means that rivers move, their shoreline changes gradually and certainly. The shore of the river Ganges was in a different place 2500 years ago. Simply put meandering means that in the course of time straight rivers become curved. I don't know how much the shoreline of Ganges has changed in 2500 years, most likely it was a few meters away from the present shoreline. Also, the sand that formed its shore 2500 years ago has been washed into the Indian Ocean. The sand particles that have been carried by rivers form sediments in the bottom of the ocean. These sediments are one object of study in Geology.

About the Buddhist holy places in general, the surface level of earth was significantly different at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, than it is now. The ground level on which he walked is below the present surface. How much? You would have to ask that from Indian archeologists and geologists.
And what is more, the crust of the Earth moves in relation to the deeper mantle of Earth. Thus you can't say that "here is the place of the vajra-seat where Buddha sat in meditation or in samadhi" etc.., because the Earth's crust has moved and changed since then.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 15, 2017 12:08 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Aemilius wrote:You have to consider the processes of erosion, sedimentation, and gradual building up of new layers or strata, when you declare a spot to be "same" as a spot of earth 2500 years ago. Every year rainwater washes away land, maybe slowly, but in the course of time it amounts to significant measures. New particles of dust and sand are added by the wind every year. Dead leaves and debris are blown by the wind, they gradually form new strata on top of the old surface of the earth. In the course of time ancient towns and cities have been buried by natural processes.
And?
It is difficult to sum up geological processes in a few words. As this place Kashi is beside the river Ganges, you would have to consider the phenomenon of meandering, which means that rivers move, their shoreline changes gradually and certainly. The shore of the river Ganges was in a different place 2500 years ago. Simply put meandering means that in the course of time straight rivers become curved. I don't know how much the shoreline of Ganges has changed in 2500 years, most likely it was a few meters away from the present shoreline. Also, the sand that formed its shore 2500 years ago has been washed into the Indian Ocean. The sand particles that have been carried by rivers form sediments in the bottom of the ocean. These sediments are one object of study in Geology.

About the Buddhist holy places in general, the surface level of earth was significantly different at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, than it is now. The ground level on which he walked is below the present surface. How much? You would have to ask that from Indian archeologists and geologists.
And what is more, the crust of the Earth moves in relation to the deeper mantle of Earth. Thus you can't say that "here is the place of the vajra-seat where Buddha sat in meditation or in samadhi" etc.., because the Earth's crust has moved and changed since then.
So what? Does it really matter? I mean they didn't exactly have GPS back then.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

freewheeling
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by freewheeling » Tue May 16, 2017 7:24 am

Watching the conversation between Krishnamurti and Chogyam Trungpa. Trungpa hardly got a word in. Krishnamurti
was in the midst of a soliloquy.

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Aemilius
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Aemilius » Tue May 16, 2017 9:55 am

It is important in a number of ways: The Earth beneath our feet is not stable and unchanging. The mountains have arisen gradually, it has taken only a few million years for the Alps and Himalayas to arise and form gradually, for example. If you had lived there at the time, you would have hardly noticed it happening, and yet every year they arose slightly higher. At the same time mountains erode, they crumble away, because of the heat changes, because of freezing and melting, because of wind, sun and water. Gradually, in about 100 million years they are completely worn away. The Alps, Himalayas, the Vulturehead Peak, and other mountain ranges will wear away, disappear. Mountain formation is called orogeny in Science. Human life is short, and thus we are not able to realize these changes in the seemingly 'stable' environment. In 1800's Nalanda was buried under earth, the ruins have been excavated. Even very recently several new ruins of monasteries have been excavated around the Nalanda area. There are photographs of Nalanda at the time of the first excavations in 1800's, it was quite different then.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by pemachophel » Tue May 16, 2017 3:55 pm

"About the Buddhist holy places in general, the surface level of earth was significantly different at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, than it is now. The ground level on which he walked is below the present surface. How much? You would have to ask that from Indian archeologists and geologists."

Khandro Kamala (Chatral Rinpoche's Sangyum) has been building a large stupa at Shravasti. Two weeks ago, She mentioned that the level of the ground at Sharavasti when Lord Buddha lived here was 9 meters below what it is now (27 feet). That's a lot.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Anonymous X » Tue May 16, 2017 6:40 pm

pemachophel wrote:"About the Buddhist holy places in general, the surface level of earth was significantly different at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, than it is now. The ground level on which he walked is below the present surface. How much? You would have to ask that from Indian archeologists and geologists."

Khandro Kamala (Chatral Rinpoche's Sangyum) has been building a large stupa at Shravasti. Two weeks ago, She mentioned that the level of the ground at Sharavasti when Lord Buddha lived here was 9 meters below what it is now (27 feet). That's a lot.
This reminds me of my visit long ago to Ephesus, a major Greek ruin now, which originally was on the coast line and a major port. The coast is now miles away.

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 16, 2017 7:01 pm

Aemilius wrote:It is important in a number of ways: The Earth beneath our feet is not stable and unchanging. The mountains have arisen gradually, it has taken only a few million years for the Alps and Himalayas to arise and form gradually, for example. If you had lived there at the time, you would have hardly noticed it happening, and yet every year they arose slightly higher. At the same time mountains erode, they crumble away, because of the heat changes, because of freezing and melting, because of wind, sun and water. Gradually, in about 100 million years they are completely worn away. The Alps, Himalayas, the Vulturehead Peak, and other mountain ranges will wear away, disappear. Mountain formation is called orogeny in Science. Human life is short, and thus we are not able to realize these changes in the seemingly 'stable' environment. In 1800's Nalanda was buried under earth, the ruins have been excavated. Even very recently several new ruins of monasteries have been excavated around the Nalanda area. There are photographs of Nalanda at the time of the first excavations in 1800's, it was quite different then.
You are missing the point: It actually does not mean shit if the earth was higher or lower, the river changed it's path, the sea level rose or dropped, what matters is if the person believes that it is the spot where the Buddha landed. Faith is a mental factor that is a requisite for enlightenment, knowing GPS coordinates and opinions on geography don't feature so highly.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:The Buddha Shakyamuni is also considered an Avatar of Vishnu, a Christian Saint in Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism (St Josaphat), etc... So why would it seem strange that a "non-Buddhist" would show respect for the Buddha?
But they has no idea the story of Baarlam and Josaphat was in fact based on the Buddha's life.

As an avatar, it is hardly a respectful thing — Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu sent to deceive the Asuras.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 16, 2017 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:But they has no idea the story of Baarlam and Josaphat was in fact based on the Buddha's life.
So what? The point is that they identified the positive characteristics/message in the tale of the Buddha's life and considered it important enough to make it pert of their canon.
As an avatar, it is hardly a respectful thing — Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu sent to deceive the Asuras.
I don't see how being an Avatar of Vishnu could possibly be disrespectful. Followers of Vishnu worship his avatars because their actions were expressions of the will of their god. How is that disrespectful??? Buddha fooled the Asura, Parashurama destroyed the greedy Kshatriya clans, Vamana vanquished the demon king Bali after he abused his powers and starts to destroy the universe, etc... Isn't Vishnu's tenth avatar the Kalki that features as one of the saviours of humanity, and bringer of the Golden Age, in the Kalachakra?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 16, 2017 7:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But they has no idea the story of Baarlam and Josaphat was in fact based on the Buddha's life.
So what? The point is that they identified the positive characteristics/message in the tale of the Buddha's life and considered it important enough to make it pert of their canon.
They did not know it was from the Buddha's life. If they had, they would have excluded it.
I don't see how being an Avatar of Vishnu could possibly be disrespectful. Followers of Vishnu worship his avatars because their actions were expressions of the will of their god. How is that disrespectful???
it is disrespectful, for example, because it is clearly a political narrative penned at the expense of Buddhists. On the other hand, when people call for infidels and heretics to be slaughtered because their god tells them too, I guess that is not disrespectful either. Onward Christian Warriors!
Buddha fooled the Asura, Parashurama destroyed the greedy Kshatriya clans, Vamana vanquished the demon king Bali after he abused his powers and starts to destroy the universe, etc... Isn't Vishnu's tenth avatar the Kalki that features as one of the saviours of humanity, and bringer of the Golden Age, in the Kalachakra?
Kalacakra definitely uses the scheme of the ten avatars of Vishnu for its own purposes.

I would hardly call Kalacakra's description of all the leading patriarchs of the Abrahamic religions respectful in anyway.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 16, 2017 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:They did not know it was from the Buddha's life. If they had, they would have excluded it.
You are assuming they did not know it. Given the amount of intellectual cross-fertilisation that existed in the region my assumption would be that they did know it was the life of Buddha but they changed names and identities to protect the innocent.
it is disrespectful, for example, because it is clearly a political narrative penned at the expense of Buddhists. On the other hand, when people call for infidels and heretics to be slaughtered because their god tells them too, I guess that is not disrespectful either. Onward Christian Warriors!
The fact that they considered it important enough to include it in their narrative shows the value they attached to it. As for the other part of your post: I fail to see it's relevance to the current discussion.
I would hardly call Kalacakra's description of all the leading patriarchs of the Abrahamic religions respectful in anyway.
I also fail to see the relevance of this statement.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 16, 2017 9:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:They did not know it was from the Buddha's life. If they had, they would have excluded it.
You are assuming they did not know it. Given the amount of intellectual cross-fertilisation that existed in the region my assumption would be that they did know it was the life of Buddha but they changed names and identities to protect the innocent.
No, it is completely unlikely. Please read the history of this.
The fact that they considered it important enough to include it in their narrative shows the value they attached to it.
I understand it as a dis of Buddhists and Buddhism. Your mileage may very.

I would hardly call Kalacakra's description of all the leading patriarchs of the Abrahamic religions respectful in anyway.
I also fail to see the relevance of this statement.
According to you, it should be AOK, since it is in someones religious book.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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