Jiddu Krishnamurti

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 17, 2017 6:46 am

Malcolm wrote:No, it is completely unlikely. Please read the history of this.
I have read the history of this and it does not seem COMPLETELY unlikely to me. Again though: the point is that Christians found the essence of the tale important enough to include it in their canon.
According to you, it should be AOK, since it is in someones religious book.
Now you are being ridiculous and are engaging in straw man logic fallacies.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aemilius
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Aemilius » Wed May 17, 2017 9:44 am

Grigoris wrote:
Aemilius wrote:It is important in a number of ways: The Earth beneath our feet is not stable and unchanging. The mountains have arisen gradually, it has taken only a few million years for the Alps and Himalayas to arise and form gradually, for example. If you had lived there at the time, you would have hardly noticed it happening, and yet every year they arose slightly higher. At the same time mountains erode, they crumble away, because of the heat changes, because of freezing and melting, because of wind, sun and water. Gradually, in about 100 million years they are completely worn away. The Alps, Himalayas, the Vulturehead Peak, and other mountain ranges will wear away, disappear. Mountain formation is called orogeny in Science. Human life is short, and thus we are not able to realize these changes in the seemingly 'stable' environment. In 1800's Nalanda was buried under earth, the ruins have been excavated. Even very recently several new ruins of monasteries have been excavated around the Nalanda area. There are photographs of Nalanda at the time of the first excavations in 1800's, it was quite different then.
You are missing the point: It actually does not mean shit if the earth was higher or lower, the river changed it's path, the sea level rose or dropped, what matters is if the person believes that it is the spot where the Buddha landed. Faith is a mental factor that is a requisite for enlightenment, knowing GPS coordinates and opinions on geography don't feature so highly.
There is a well established religious theory about the sacred and holy which is common to all religions, to Zoroastrianism, African and Australian native religion etc... Its thinking is usually taken for granted, i.e. that the primary Holy Object, like Buddha or Zoroaster etc., influences matter and the material world in various mystical ways. Thus we get the holy places, sacred rivers, sacred or holy mountains, sacred implements and a vast collection of other sacred material objects, like pieces of a cloth that has been worn by the founder or saint of a particular religion. And even things like a tooth that has fallen from the pure jaw of Je Tsong Khapa, etc...
For a true believer it does indeed matter that the sacred object is a true sacred object. People have been killed and wars have been fought over the control and possession of holy places and sacred objects!
You can't dismiss so easily the theory and tradition of the holy mystical influence over the profane and the material world.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 17, 2017 2:12 pm

Aemilius wrote:There is a well established religious theory about the sacred and holy which is common to all religions, to Zoroastrianism, African and Australian native religion etc... Its thinking is usually taken for granted, i.e. that the primary Holy Object, like Buddha or Zoroaster etc., influences matter and the material world in various mystical ways. Thus we get the holy places, sacred rivers, sacred or holy mountains, sacred implements and a vast collection of other sacred material objects, like pieces of a cloth that has been worn by the founder or saint of a particular religion. And even things like a tooth that has fallen from the pure jaw of Je Tsong Khapa, etc...
For a true believer it does indeed matter that the sacred object is a true sacred object. People have been killed and wars have been fought over the control and possession of holy places and sacred objects!
You can't dismiss so easily the theory and tradition of the holy mystical influence over the profane and the material world.
Dogs teeth and water from a muddy creek. A true believer normally just believes, they are not necessarily interested in knowing.

Personally, when somebody presents me with relics, I just bow my head and take the blow to the head, I don't ask for DNA samples.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed May 17, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Malcolm » Wed May 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:I have read the history of this and it does not seem COMPLETELY unlikely to me. Again though: the point is that Christians found the essence of the tale important enough to include it in their canon.
It does not mean that they were aware of its origin, and there is no evidence to suggest that they were, since the tale was quite garbled and out of its context by the time it reached the the Christian world, and also quite a long time after the last Buddhist monasteries in Eastern Iran, etc. were deserted.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 22, 2017 5:56 pm

I'm sure hippies stood in awe while hearing such tales...

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Aemilius
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Aemilius » Fri May 26, 2017 8:53 am

Sri Lanka was known to Romans and Greeks by the name Tabrobane roughly 2000 years ago, http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/1999/1999-08-08.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 26, 2017 10:07 am

Greek nuns and monks from Bactria (20,000 apparently) went to Sri Lanka for the Maha Stupa inauguration. So...

Bactria was ruled by Hellenic stock (emperor Strato II) up until 10AD.

So this idea that Europeans (Hellenes especially) or Middle Asians were unaware of the Buddha and his story doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

Apparently (anecdotal evidence from Japanese monks travelling from Turkey to Greece in the early 80's, reported to one of my Greek lama) there was even a stupa in Istanbul, who's destruction occurred during the time of the emperor Justinan I. The remnants of the stupa were tracked down by aforementioned monks.

Problem with North Americans is they have no idea of the sense of continuity of history, since they live in a country whose pre-European memory was basically erased starting in the 16th century. Here in Greece (for example) time is measured on different scales. The house I live in was built around the 15th century. I look out the window of my house and see a castle built in 500AD (around the time the stupa in Istanbul would have been razed). Just across the road from the place where I work (a house built around the late 18th century) there are the remnants of a market place that dates to about 750BC. In Turkey I visited the remnants of a palace/fortress dated around 3000BC. Etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by freewheeling » Sat May 27, 2017 9:44 am

The lack of continuity doesn't just affect America, you can add Canada and Australia to the list. It's only the indigenous people
in the so called 'new world' that have a past often reaching back for 20 to 50 thousand years. They tenaciously cling on to their past and connection to the land which as time passes is a slippery slope to western ways and diet.
It sounds like you live in a marvellous corner of the world, primal and fascinating.

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Quay » Sun May 28, 2017 3:14 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm sure hippies stood in awe while hearing such tales...
:D Or sat and swayed happily back and forth while the joss sicks burned....
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sun May 28, 2017 8:54 pm

:lol:

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Grigoris
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 28, 2017 9:15 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm sure hippies stood in awe while hearing such tales...
Don't give up your day job...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sun May 28, 2017 9:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm sure hippies stood in awe while hearing such tales...
Don't give up your day job...
Meaning? Am I wrong, Greg?

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Stefos
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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Stefos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:27 am

Hello fellow Dharma Children!

Why are you arguing?

Is this productive?

Put the self cherishing mind aside and get back on topic: J. Krishnamurti

Incidentally, Krishnamurti recounted a past life experience of seeing where the Buddha first touched ground in one particular spot!

Fairly trippy, If I may say so.

What do you think of J Krishnamurti denouncing every form of modern Buddhism today?

Stefos

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Stefos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:34 am

freewheeling wrote:Watching the conversation between Krishnamurti and Chogyam Trungpa. Trungpa hardly got a word in. Krishnamurti
was in the midst of a soliloquy.
Krishnamurti stopped to give V.C.T. his time to speak.

I didn't see a bulldozering Krishnamurti monopolize the conversation.

Stefos...........TLD

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:41 am

Stefos wrote:
freewheeling wrote:Watching the conversation between Krishnamurti and Chogyam Trungpa. Trungpa hardly got a word in. Krishnamurti
was in the midst of a soliloquy.
Krishnamurti stopped to give V.C.T. his time to speak.

I didn't see a bulldozering Krishnamurti monopolize the conversation.

Stefos...........TLD
Trungpa looked glazed over in the interview. Hangover? Deep samadhi? I wouldn't even call it a conversation. :zzz:

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by DGA » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:51 pm

Anonymous X wrote: Trungpa looked glazed over in the interview. Hangover? Deep samadhi? I wouldn't even call it a conversation. :zzz:
He looked bored after all that rattling on and on and on from J Krishnamurti. Does JK appear to be in dialogue mode for the first half of that video? It's a very nervous expostulation he offers, and plenty of it.

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Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:03 am

DGA wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Trungpa looked glazed over in the interview. Hangover? Deep samadhi? I wouldn't even call it a conversation. :zzz:
He looked bored after all that rattling on and on and on from J Krishnamurti. Does JK appear to be in dialogue mode for the first half of that video? It's a very nervous expostulation he offers, and plenty of it.
Trungpa could have interrupted at any time. He offered nothing. Too bad, as it could have been a lot more interesting than it turned out to be.

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