Socialism & Communism

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
pothigai
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:26 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by pothigai » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:08 am

Strive wrote:communism and nazism are both nasty ideologies, should always be condemned. let us keep it center left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
'Communism' is a very broad strand of thought, Stalinism, with its emphasis on authoritarian violence as a strategy for achieving a communist society, should not be seen as the sole representative of such thought.

The only thing that really unites the different strands of Communist thought is that they see the collective management of common goods to be a goal worth working for.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others claimed to believe that imposing a centralised authoritarian state over all of society would be the best way to transition towards a communist society; even they didn't think that they were actually living under communism. They were of course wrong; such a transition never occurred and they instead caused a great deal of suffering to millions of people.

However, the failure of the authoritarian communist projects of the 20th Century does not seem like a good enough reason to me to abandon achieving the goal of a society in which common goods are managed collectively, instead of by a small group of elites. Rather, it seems to be that all such failures have proven is that a non-democratic, centralised state bureaucracy is not a viable strategy for achieving communism and is more likely to lead to widespread repression.

If the failure of the communist projects of the 20th century should lead us to abandon the goal of communism, then perhaps we should abandon the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternity because of the slaughter that occurred during the reign of the Terror of the French Revolution.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:42 pm

pothigai wrote:
Strive wrote:communism and nazism are both nasty ideologies, should always be condemned. let us keep it center left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
'Communism' is a very broad strand of thought, Stalinism, with its emphasis on authoritarian violence as a strategy for achieving a communist society, should not be seen as the sole representative of such thought.

The only thing that really unites the different strands of Communist thought is that they see the collective management of common goods to be a goal worth working for.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others claimed to believe that imposing a centralised authoritarian state over all of society would be the best way to transition towards a communist society; even they didn't think that they were actually living under communism. They were of course wrong; such a transition never occurred and they instead caused a great deal of suffering to millions of people.

However, the failure of the authoritarian communist projects of the 20th Century does not seem like a good enough reason to me to abandon achieving the goal of a society in which common goods are managed collectively, instead of by a small group of elites. Rather, it seems to be that all such failures have proven is that a non-democratic, centralised state bureaucracy is not a viable strategy for achieving communism and is more likely to lead to widespread repression.

If the failure of the communist projects of the 20th century should lead us to abandon the goal of communism, then perhaps we should abandon the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternity because of the slaughter that occurred during the reign of the Terror of the French Revolution.
:good: :good: :good:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:09 pm

A little historical reminder of Hungary and those who escaped Communism with help from freedom loving folk, in 1956:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-hunga ... 29464.html
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm

No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27379
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

No true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Tiago Simões
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

No true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
Christianity surely oppressed all native religious traditions of Europe, extinguishing them in the process, and continued to do so in the new world. Some would thank Christianity for stopping human sacrifice in Europe, but the pre-Christian Romans pretty much opposed it already, and would have ended it anyway.

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

Not true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
Think again Malcolm. I wrote
hostile to all forms of spirituality
Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Tiago Simões
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27379
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm
Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
Excuse me? Look again. Christians have actively persecuted other Christians for their beliefs and forms, just as Muslims have actively persecuted other Muslims for the same reasons.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27379
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nemo » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:17 pm

"Freedom without socialism is privilege & injustice,
And socialism without freedom is slavery & brutality."
- Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16697
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:24 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
The Hundred Year War? Northern Ireland? If we want to talk about "religious" wars.

What about World War One and The Second World War? That was Christians versus Christians too if I am not mistaken?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm


The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Talk about Red herrings - to coin a phrase.
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27379
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:39 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm


An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Talk about Red herrings - to coin a phrase.
You claimed that Christians did not oppress other Christians. This shows you have a misconception about the bloody, internecine struggles that have characterized Christianity since it emerged into dominance in the Roman Empire.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:45 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Dude, there were 3 crusades against Czechs because of the hussite movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars. Not talking about many reformers burned alive as heretics.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3058
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm

Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.

Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.

If you want to rant against Islam or Xtianity, then start another thread.
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16697
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:34 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm
Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.
Dude, some of the hardcore Christians I know would stuff your lotus up your ass if they knew you were a Buddhist. For the past three months, every day after my monthly protector practices, I get trash thrown in my front yard by the God loving Christians in my neighbourhood. I guess the drum rolls are too much for them.
Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.
No, ignorance, of whichever political or religious denomination, does that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27379
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:56 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm
Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.

Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.
Dude, you give communism way, way too much power. It's [expletive to be supplied by your imagination] done. There is no more communism anymore, nor is it possible anymore. Corporations have amassed far too much wealth to ever permit anything like a communist revolution, save an absolute collapse of the world economy, in which they will be powerless to respond in any case.

You really should be worried far more by Fascists. They're the one's who will kill the press, close government offices, restrict access to government...oh, wait, this is the [expletive to be supplied by your imagination] Trump administration where all of this is happening right now.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7833
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 am

Christians not harming each other = LOL.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Tenma and 12 guests