Socialism & Communism

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pothigai
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by pothigai » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:08 am

Strive wrote:communism and nazism are both nasty ideologies, should always be condemned. let us keep it center left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
'Communism' is a very broad strand of thought, Stalinism, with its emphasis on authoritarian violence as a strategy for achieving a communist society, should not be seen as the sole representative of such thought.

The only thing that really unites the different strands of Communist thought is that they see the collective management of common goods to be a goal worth working for.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others claimed to believe that imposing a centralised authoritarian state over all of society would be the best way to transition towards a communist society; even they didn't think that they were actually living under communism. They were of course wrong; such a transition never occurred and they instead caused a great deal of suffering to millions of people.

However, the failure of the authoritarian communist projects of the 20th Century does not seem like a good enough reason to me to abandon achieving the goal of a society in which common goods are managed collectively, instead of by a small group of elites. Rather, it seems to be that all such failures have proven is that a non-democratic, centralised state bureaucracy is not a viable strategy for achieving communism and is more likely to lead to widespread repression.

If the failure of the communist projects of the 20th century should lead us to abandon the goal of communism, then perhaps we should abandon the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternity because of the slaughter that occurred during the reign of the Terror of the French Revolution.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:42 pm

pothigai wrote:
Strive wrote:communism and nazism are both nasty ideologies, should always be condemned. let us keep it center left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
'Communism' is a very broad strand of thought, Stalinism, with its emphasis on authoritarian violence as a strategy for achieving a communist society, should not be seen as the sole representative of such thought.

The only thing that really unites the different strands of Communist thought is that they see the collective management of common goods to be a goal worth working for.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others claimed to believe that imposing a centralised authoritarian state over all of society would be the best way to transition towards a communist society; even they didn't think that they were actually living under communism. They were of course wrong; such a transition never occurred and they instead caused a great deal of suffering to millions of people.

However, the failure of the authoritarian communist projects of the 20th Century does not seem like a good enough reason to me to abandon achieving the goal of a society in which common goods are managed collectively, instead of by a small group of elites. Rather, it seems to be that all such failures have proven is that a non-democratic, centralised state bureaucracy is not a viable strategy for achieving communism and is more likely to lead to widespread repression.

If the failure of the communist projects of the 20th century should lead us to abandon the goal of communism, then perhaps we should abandon the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternity because of the slaughter that occurred during the reign of the Terror of the French Revolution.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:09 pm

A little historical reminder of Hungary and those who escaped Communism with help from freedom loving folk, in 1956:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-hunga ... 29464.html
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm

No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Malcolm
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

No true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
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tiagolps
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by tiagolps » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

No true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
Christianity surely oppressed all native religious traditions of Europe, extinguishing them in the process, and continued to do so in the new world. Some would thank Christianity for stopping human sacrifice in Europe, but the pre-Christian Romans pretty much opposed it already, and would have ended it anyway.
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Enjoy the domain of the tranquil nirvana.
Fully possessing the om and the soha,
You overcome even the greatest of evils.

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:49 pm
No movement has been more hostile to all forms of spirituality than Communism. For a good one volume survey of it, this old classic was reissued recently - The Naked Communist by Skousen.

Not true, Christianity is the most hostile, historically speaking. Then Islam.
Think again Malcolm. I wrote
hostile to all forms of spirituality
Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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tiagolps
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by tiagolps » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
Homage to you, blissful, virtuous and peaceful,
Enjoy the domain of the tranquil nirvana.
Fully possessing the om and the soha,
You overcome even the greatest of evils.

_______________________________________________
"Buddhahood really is like an infection and it goes from one person to another. You can fight it off, but it's a pity if you do that..."
-Rigdzin Shikpo

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Malcolm
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm
Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
Excuse me? Look again. Christians have actively persecuted other Christians for their beliefs and forms, just as Muslims have actively persecuted other Muslims for the same reasons.
Atikosha
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Nemo
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nemo » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:17 pm

"Freedom without socialism is privilege & injustice,
And socialism without freedom is slavery & brutality."
- Mikhail Bakunin

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Grigoris
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:24 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
The Hundred Year War? Northern Ireland? If we want to talk about "religious" wars.

What about World War One and The Second World War? That was Christians versus Christians too if I am not mistaken?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm


The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Talk about Red herrings - to coin a phrase.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Malcolm
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:39 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:22 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm


An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Oh sure, because that is why the Reformation happened. Albigensian crusade, and so on. Not to mention the suppression of every old world pagan religion from the time of Constantine on.
Talk about Red herrings - to coin a phrase.
You claimed that Christians did not oppress other Christians. This shows you have a misconception about the bloody, internecine struggles that have characterized Christianity since it emerged into dominance in the Roman Empire.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Miroku
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:45 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:16 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:02 pm

Neither Xtianity nor Islam were hostile to their own forms.
The 4th crusade was a crusade on other Christians.
An exception that proves the general rule of Xtians being supportive of each other.
Dude, there were 3 crusades against Czechs because of the hussite movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars. Not talking about many reformers burned alive as heretics.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm

Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.

Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.

If you want to rant against Islam or Xtianity, then start another thread.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Grigoris
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:34 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm
Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.
Dude, some of the hardcore Christians I know would stuff your lotus up your ass if they knew you were a Buddhist. For the past three months, every day after my monthly protector practices, I get trash thrown in my front yard by the God loving Christians in my neighbourhood. I guess the drum rolls are too much for them.
Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.
No, ignorance, of whichever political or religious denomination, does that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:56 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:03 pm
Xtian squabbles, bloody or otherwise has little to do with the modern Communist movement's annihilation of any sort of spiritual living. The countless Xtian sects are still Xtian, even if critical of many of their brethren.

Communism kills & extinguishes the spirit in mankind more effectively & deliberately than any other movement.
Dude, you give communism way, way too much power. It's [expletive to be supplied by your imagination] done. There is no more communism anymore, nor is it possible anymore. Corporations have amassed far too much wealth to ever permit anything like a communist revolution, save an absolute collapse of the world economy, in which they will be powerless to respond in any case.

You really should be worried far more by Fascists. They're the one's who will kill the press, close government offices, restrict access to government...oh, wait, this is the [expletive to be supplied by your imagination] Trump administration where all of this is happening right now.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Socialism & Communism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 am

Christians not harming each other = LOL.
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-Jeff H.

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