Gods, demons and arithmetic

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PuerAzaelis
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Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Anonymous X wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:... imagination is not real.
Imaginings, concepts, ideas, daydreams - they're in my experience. What makes my experience unreal?
You do. They are fabrications, just like the narrative of yourself.
Jesse wrote:Alas, I think we are all getting a bit off topic, sorry if I contributed to that. We should probably focus on the OP's question.
Anonymous X:

So when I see a red car, and I know it is a red car and not a blue car, you're saying that is the same kind of mistake as when I speculate about the existence of a flying spaghetti monster?

"All bachelors are unmarried", "1+1=2", "all grass is green", "there is a train rapidly approaching me", "Yaweh exists", "Brahman exists", etc., they can be proven, demonstrated, deducted, all in the same way, they're "all just imagination"?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Anonymous X
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Anonymous X »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote: Imaginings, concepts, ideas, daydreams - they're in my experience. What makes my experience unreal?
You do. They are fabrications, just like the narrative of yourself.
Jesse wrote:Alas, I think we are all getting a bit off topic, sorry if I contributed to that. We should probably focus on the OP's question.
Anonymous X:

So when I see a red car, and I know it is a red car and not a blue car, you're saying that is the same kind of mistake as when I speculate about the existence of a flying spaghetti monster?

"All bachelors are unmarried", "1+1=2", "all grass is green", "there is a train rapidly approaching me", "Yaweh exists", "Brahman exists", etc., they can be proven, demonstrated, deducted, all in the same way, they're "all just imagination"?
yes, and no.
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lelopa
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by lelopa »

:popcorn:
Lost In Transmission
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Anonymous X wrote:yes, and no.
Oh come on.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Anonymous X
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Anonymous X »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:yes, and no.
Oh come on.
As long as you look at all this from the point of view of the dualistic mind, you cannot understand the point of view of intrinsic awareness and presence. It is only the dualistic mind that divides up everything into good and bad and right wrong. And, then wants to prove its point. It's a hollow point.
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by dzogchungpa »

:popcorn:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
DGA
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by DGA »

Anonymous X wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:yes, and no.
Oh come on.
As long as you look at all this from the point of view of the dualistic mind, you cannot understand the point of view of intrinsic awareness and presence. It is only the dualistic mind that divides up everything into good and bad and right wrong. And, then wants to prove its point. It's a hollow point.
What do "intrinsic awareness" and "presence" mean to you for the purpose of this discussion?
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Minobu
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Minobu »

playing word games with Sunyata is not the intended .

one needs to be careful...
i recently used the words real and unreal...all with good intention....but ...
i don't know who read them without actually being at the View .
yeah if a Guru brought you to the View ..and Your mind is there...

The words real and unreal can ring true...

but...without the right understanding of the View....they could prove harmful for the rest of that person's lifetime here...
confusing them ...harming them ...

very dangerous game in the hands of amateurs and charlatans ..

one should leave their egos at the door and maybe stay quiet and leave it for the guru.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Anonymous X wrote:... It is only the dualistic mind that divides up everything ... And, then wants to prove its point. It's a hollow point.
Like for example dividing up everything into things that are fabrications (according to you, all things) and things that aren't (according to you, no things)?

"That car is red, not blue". I know this. I can share this knowledge with you. I can demonstrate. I directly point out the red car. If you don't get it I directly point it out again. Until the light bulb goes off. At which point, heck now when you see the car you know too - it really is red, not blue.

"The flying spaghetti monster exists". I know this. I can share this knowledge with you. I can prove, wait no ... I can deduce , wait no ... I can demonstrate, wait no. Heck I guess I might not know that after all. Maybe I fabricated my knowledge, or imagined it, or it was an illusion.

You're saying there's no difference - you don't know that the red car is red to the same extent that you do know that there is a flying spaghetti monster, it's all the same, it's "all just illusion"?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Kaccāni
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Kaccāni »

:popcorn:
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Minobu wrote:... word games ...
It's not word games to ask what the difference is between knowing a car is red and knowing Yaweh exists. I'm just some shmuck asking a question in the Lounge, that doesn't make anyone here Socrates. How do you know I have any clue what the answer is and I'm not just making a complete fool of myself? But is that any worse than saying "all is illusion" and then thinking, well that was easy.

If I'm wrong, tell me why.
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Minobu
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Minobu »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Minobu wrote:... word games ...
It's not word games to ask what the difference is between knowing a car is red and knowing Yaweh exists. I'm just some shmuck asking a question in the Lounge, that doesn't make anyone here Socrates. How do you know I have any clue what the answer is and I'm not just making a complete fool of myself? But is that any worse than saying "all is illusion" and then thinking, well that was easy.
I wasn't signalling you out, or being specific to anyone...
the post was actually more about me as an example than anyone else..

that being said...a lot of banter about sunyata can cause harm.
just saying.

when i was taught this over a period of five years...slowly...the Rinpoche drilled into us that just using any words or trying to explain in one's own words could cause great harm to oneself and others...

it's like existence and non existence and i went and used real and unreal...

Karma is always created when talking dharma...expensive karma...there i just used a weird word...it could be misunderstood...maybe by everyone reading it...thats not good for me or others...
Anonymous X
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Anonymous X »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:... It is only the dualistic mind that divides up everything ... And, then wants to prove its point. It's a hollow point.
Like for example dividing up everything into things that are fabrications (according to you, all things) and things that aren't (according to you, no things)?

"That car is red, not blue". I know this. I can share this knowledge with you. I can demonstrate. I directly point out the red car. If you don't get it I directly point it out again. Until the light bulb goes off. At which point, heck now when you see the car you know too - it really is red, not blue.

"The flying spaghetti monster exists". I know this. I can share this knowledge with you. I can prove, wait no ... I can deduce , wait no ... I can demonstrate, wait no. Heck I guess I might not know that after all. Maybe I fabricated my knowledge, or imagined it, or it was an illusion.

You're saying there's no difference - you don't know that the red car is red to the same extent that you do know that there is a flying spaghetti monster, it's all the same, it's "all just illusion"?
You just think too much. :shrug:
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Anonymous X wrote:You just think too much. :shrug:
Uh huh. And purely as a hypothetical, if someone were to say "everything is a fabrication, illusion, narrative, imagining", etc., that would be intellectual dishonesty.

PS: And I know that - for a fact.

;)
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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DGA
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by DGA »

Anonymous X wrote:You just think too much. :shrug:
Next time someone catches me in a contradiction, I'll just say this and walk on by.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Minobu wrote:that being said...a lot of banter about sunyata can cause harm.
just saying.
K.

But the Lounge of Dharma Wheel is not exactly where angels fear to tread.

Maybe you think too much.

:lol:
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Minobu
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Minobu »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You just think too much. :shrug:
Uh huh. And purely as a hypothetical, if someone were to say "everything is a fabrication, illusion, narrative, imagining", etc., that would be intellectual dishonesty.

PS: And I know that - for a fact.

;)
i agree..
speaking for myself...i see these uses of the words illusion existence non existence , etc...as a means to point to the view.

sunyata comes to the view that there is a conventional reality... but it really isn't the true nature of the mind
so Lord Nagarjuna Buddha points us to a realization that it's not really some inherent existence but a sort of illusion ...
So we lose attachment to this Samsaric Desire realm...See it for what it is...and teach of enlightenment...Aspire to enlightenment...

but then we are not to get attached to the View either...so less banter and more Chanting to the Gohonzon of
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo...

the manifestation of Lord Nagarjuna's and Lord Sakyamuni's aim for sentients trapped in Samsara during the Latter Day of The Law.

the practice is developed enough for one to attain instantly whilst chanting to Gohonzon..
the moment of enlightenment The Lotus Sutra teaches..
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by Grigoris »

PuerAzaelis wrote:Uh huh. And purely as a hypothetical, if someone were to say "everything is a fabrication, illusion, narrative, imagining", etc., that would be intellectual dishonesty.
Why? Are you saying that there is actually is an objective autnomously existent "red", for example?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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ClearblueSky
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by ClearblueSky »

Grigoris wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:Uh huh. And purely as a hypothetical, if someone were to say "everything is a fabrication, illusion, narrative, imagining", etc., that would be intellectual dishonesty.
Why? Are you saying that there is actually is an objective autnomously existent "red", for example?
I'll jump in and say there is, for the most part. I'd say anything between 650-750 in terms of wavelength could be called red, and nothing else. Now what you call that in a language, or how your eyes take it in is a different story. That said it's not as solid as the other example of "1+1=2". That has an objective truth (we could get into the age old debate of whether we invented math or discovered it I suppose, but that's still different).
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Gods, demons and arithmetic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Grigoris wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:Uh huh. And purely as a hypothetical, if someone were to say "everything is a fabrication, illusion, narrative, imagining", etc., that would be intellectual dishonesty.
Why? Are you saying that there is actually is an objective autnomously existent "red", for example?
Well ...

Red things exist or don't exist. Just like red things are either red or not red. "Exist" and "red" are predicates. (I get them "from" experience. Theoretically. Lol).

But is my knowing what red is, a red thing? Or is my knowing what red is, not a red thing? Both, neither? (Sounds vaguely familiar ...)

If I can't say whether my knowing what red is, is a red thing, how could I likewise say whether my knowing what red is, is an existent thing?

Or:

Even though I am not seeing anything red at the moment, and I do not have a thought, idea or concept of anything red at the moment, I know what red is.

That is, even though my experience is not red, I still know "red".

So knowledge is not experience. (Although I get it "from" experience. Theoretically. Lol).

But experience is my world, universe, everything, anything.

So if knowledge is not experience, it is not my world, universe, everything, anything. It is - nothing.

:alien:
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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