Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

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Nosta
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Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:01 pm

I read the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and I loved it. Sogyal Rinpoche looked like a great master.

Unfortunatly, it seems that he is not that good. At least his morality and ethical seems to be faulty, since he was accused of sexual abuse.

If that is true, then everything he said may be put in check too. Well, maybe some things he wrote were teachings he memorized from other great masters (were they really great? I hope they didnt abuse any woman too...).

What do you have to say about the accusations agains Sogyal? How does that affect what he teach? Say your toughts on this.

You can read some stuff about the sexual accusations against him, here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogyal_Rinpoche

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-buddhist


From wiki, you can see how good was the book (and how bad it is to see that maybe - and alledgly was writen by a sexual predator):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibet ... _reception
Criticism and reception[edit]
Donald S. Lopez, Jr. characterized the book's many references to, and quotations from, prominent figures of Classical and European history as "cosmopolitan eclecticism",[9] saying that Sogyal Rinpoche places Tibetan wisdom "in a global and ahistorical spiritual lineage of thinkers that no other Tibetan author has ever cited."[9] The religious studies scholar Huston Smith said, “I have encountered no book on the interplay of life and death that is more comprehensive, practical and wise. The perspective is forthrightly and profoundly Tibetan, but it is expounded so clearly that the reader has no trouble discerning on every page its universal import.”[10]

The book has also received praise from a number of celebrities and public figures, who have cited it as influential in their lives. Comedian John Cleese said the book was one of the most helpful he had ever read.[11] Musician Thom Yorke said, "It's the most extraordinary thing I've ever read" and "It felt like common sense from start to finish. I guess that's what wisdom is, really."[12] The Spanish footballer Carles “Tarzan” Puyol is said to have taken a keen interest in Tibetan culture and Buddhism after reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying which helped him deal with the death of a family member.[13]

Jesse
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Jesse » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:15 pm

Tbh, for a Master that practices in a Tradition where their students must view them as a Living Buddha.. there is no greater crime than to betray your students in such a manner. It is literally taking advantage of the spiritually naive, and the trust, respect, and compassion they have placed in you.

I was just reading about another teacher whom was accused by multiple students of the same crime.

It find it very sad, and angering to be totally honest.. I mean, nobody is perfect. I would also give some leeway to lay teachers, but this is not a lay-teacher, but rather a vajra master whose students place the absolute trust of the Buddha in. It would literally be like being betrayed by the Buddha for this to happen to you. (As a student of theirs.)

That aside, the teaching's are the teachings.. there is likely no fault with the teachings, rather the fault lies with the teacher. Hopefully the abused student/students will find a more ethical teacher and continue their practice.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Miroku » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:21 pm

I love his book too and it actually helped me get through my father's death and I would recommend it to anyone who is in anyway facing death (therefore to everybody). Hovewer in the light of those accusations, well I prefer to stay away from Sogyal Rinpoche. I am not sure if those accusations are false or real, hovewer even the fact that they appeared mean that people should be extra careful when considering to joing his community and take teachings from him. There are some documentaries about the topic and it seems it is real.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

amanitamusc
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:29 pm

Nosta wrote:I read the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and I loved it. Sogyal Rinpoche looked like a great master.

Unfortunatly, it seems that he is not that good. At least his morality and ethical seems to be faulty, since he was accused of sexual abuse.

If that is true, then everything he said may be put in check too. Well, maybe some things he wrote were teachings he memorized from other great masters (were they really great? I hope they didnt abuse any woman too...).

What do you have to say about the accusations agains Sogyal? How does that affect what he teach? Say your toughts on this.

You can read some stuff about the sexual accusations against him, here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogyal_Rinpoche

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-buddhist


From wiki, you can see how good was the book (and how bad it is to see that maybe - and alledgly was writen by a sexual predator):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibet ... _reception
Criticism and reception[edit]
Donald S. Lopez, Jr. characterized the book's many references to, and quotations from, prominent figures of Classical and European history as "cosmopolitan eclecticism",[9] saying that Sogyal Rinpoche places Tibetan wisdom "in a global and ahistorical spiritual lineage of thinkers that no other Tibetan author has ever cited."[9] The religious studies scholar Huston Smith said, “I have encountered no book on the interplay of life and death that is more comprehensive, practical and wise. The perspective is forthrightly and profoundly Tibetan, but it is expounded so clearly that the reader has no trouble discerning on every page its universal import.”[10]

The book has also received praise from a number of celebrities and public figures, who have cited it as influential in their lives. Comedian John Cleese said the book was one of the most helpful he had ever read.[11] Musician Thom Yorke said, "It's the most extraordinary thing I've ever read" and "It felt like common sense from start to finish. I guess that's what wisdom is, really."[12] The Spanish footballer Carles “Tarzan” Puyol is said to have taken a keen interest in Tibetan culture and Buddhism after reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying which helped him deal with the death of a family member.[13]
Is this a recent find for you?If so where have you been hibernating? If not,are you just :stirthepot:

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Nosta
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:41 pm

This is not a new finding for me. Only this topic about Sogyal is new on the forum.

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Nosta
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:44 pm

Jesse wrote:
It find it very sad, and angering to be totally honest.. I mean, nobody is perfect. I would also give some leeway to lay teachers, but this is not a lay-teacher, but rather a vajra master whose students place the absolute trust of the Buddha in. It would literally be like being betrayed by the Buddha for this to happen to you. (As a student of theirs.)

Completly agree with you. In fact, any Rinpoche is still not enlightened, but that is not an excuse for commiting crimes.

I consider no problem if a given Rinpoche was an adept of wine for example (unless he was an alcoolic) or smoking, but sexual abuse is horrible.

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justsit
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by justsit » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:08 pm

Nosta wrote:This is not a new finding for me. Only this topic about Sogyal is new on the forum.
Discussed here on DW in 2012, and in several other later threads. Nothing new to see here.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... al#p117951

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by smcj » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:31 pm

i recommend that people simply say no if they are approached for sex by their spiritual teacher.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:59 pm

Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:Image
Maybe, but no harm letting people air a concern. After all, if all teachers did was tell you others had already discussed a terma, you wouldn't learn much from cold historical research.

There is (at least?) one Lama who gave people AIDS......John 'Dharmakara' Bodhi died as a result not long ago.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:11 pm

Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
Yes, Dharmakara always spoke of himself as not a 'victim' but a 'survivor' of Tendzin's actions:
''Let's talk about Tibetan Buddhism in general, where guru worship and the spirit of denial is so strong that Osel Tendzin could not only sexually abuse students, but infect many with HIV, even though many were aware of his behavior as it was occuring.

As a survivor of Osel Tendzin, having lived with HIV for over twenty years, these would be the issues that I would like to see addressed, not the self-serving rhetoric of Tibetan masters who look at the West as if it's their personal piggy bank.

Let my abuser be my best teacher, a true statement, for I am not a victim of Osel Tendzin, but a surviver of him, though this doesn't mean that anyone should turn their eyes away from suffering or its cause, even if it brings pain to put it into words.

Although many Buddhists consider such conversation to be inappropriate or "un-Buddhist", let's not forget that if through our silence we have allowed other sentient beings to be abused or injured, then we are as guilty as the perpetrator of that abuse or injury.''

So, I think raising these issues anew is fine. Lessons need to be learned and fresh discussion is always better than secondhand research.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:42 pm

I did some searching on this topic, and:

Malcolm wrote:Unless Sogyal is guilty of a crime, by which I mean, he is convicted of sexual harassment or worse, there is really nothing to say about his morays and habits with (consenting) adults.
deepbluehum wrote:...all of Guru Rinpoche's consorts were his students. Then he introduced one male student to Yeshe Tsogyal and made her his teacher and consort. That's the tradition. The problem the Tibetans have with Westerners is not being familiar with the culture, who to avoid and who to consort with. Sogyal Rinpoche got caught up in the wrong crowd. If he was consciously or subconsciously going after weak minded women with no loyalty, he was asking for trouble and he got it. He probably rejected her marriage proposal. Also he's a public figure so he's a target, especially for Westerners who are always painting targets on people's backs, playing the victim card, and whining forever....
Malcolm wrote:Frankly, most of us who have been around for any length of time have come to the conclusion that trying to out unethical teachers doesn't work. Their students just cling tighter, and circle the wagons. For example, Mary Finnegan has been waging a war on Sogyal Rinpoche for more than twenty years. Is he any less successful? No. He is more successful than ever.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:36 pm

Sādhaka wrote:I did some searching on this topic, and:

Malcolm wrote:Unless Sogyal is guilty of a crime, by which I mean, he is convicted of sexual harassment or worse, there is really nothing to say about his morays and habits with (consenting) adults.

He's into morays? That is kind of weird, you have to admit.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:11 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:I did some searching on this topic, and:

Malcolm wrote:Unless Sogyal is guilty of a crime, by which I mean, he is convicted of sexual harassment or worse, there is really nothing to say about his morays and habits with (consenting) adults.

He's into morays? That is kind of weird, you have to admit.
Obviously an typo; and morals was meant.

Admittedly, I didn't notice it at first and just assumed that morays was a synonym for shenanigans, escapades, or sexual-adventures or something like that.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Punya » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:12 am

justsit wrote:
Nosta wrote:This is not a new finding for me. Only this topic about Sogyal is new on the forum.
Discussed here on DW in 2012, and in several other later threads. Nothing new to see here.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... al#p117951
What deepbluehum says right at the beginning of the linked thread is seriously worth considering. It's also possible to separate out the wisdom in the book from whatever you think about the person.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:25 am

Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
Look its the one from the pure land come to :stirthepot:

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Quay » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:05 am

Oh, thank you for the correction. I've asked that my post be deleted as it is totally mistaken.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:51 am

Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse. Students liked to rationalize this kind of behavior with 'Crazy Wisdom'. I see little difference in teachers like Trungpa, Osho, Da Free John, and many others, whose own karmic impulses were never 'cut through'. The only blame I lay on them is the exploitation of others which was rampant in all these groups. For some, being an exceptional scholar/academic, having some power/siddhis that are used to 'influence' others, are not what Buddhahood is all about. People need to use their intelligence whenever getting involved with a teacher. Maybe in the beginning, there is a kind of naivete to one's search, sooner or later, the signs begin to appear that these teachers are not what they claim to be. In fact, the bigger the organization, the more skeptical I become.

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