Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

[Grigoris]

...The data is valid only in the US for 2015....

And if you go to international data sites like the WHO or other UN branches, you will find that what Grigoris said is completely factual and that what Sadhaka claims is not. Globally the picture is quite clear while of course different countries in different years manifest different patterns.

Agreed. That's why it's always important to identify the population that a statistical claim applies to.

Sadhaka was blaming HIV infection and AIDS on homosexuals and bisexuals, quite clearly this is not the case. He was making a universal claim, so one must take the global context into account. You though, are cherry picking statistics in order to lend legitimacy to his homophobic claims. If one person contracted HIV through homosexual sexual relations (and I am sure one person did) does that mean that all people that have contracted HIV did so through homosexual sexual relations? Obviously not. So why are you (purposefully) limiting the picture? Do you have an agenda too?

[Lhasa]

If a tantrik 'master' blasts all your chakras at once and puts you into a state of bliss
so deep you can't think or resist, there is no way you can give consent.
You are a zombie....Siddhis matter.

This is not possible. You are reading too many comic books. No matter what experience there is, you are there with it.

It is possible, it happens...Direct experience. That's all I'm going to say.

[anjali]

Do you have an agenda too?

No agenda on my part, just trying to understand whether a statement like, "Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females," has any factual basis at all. It turns out that, if my reading of the US data is correct, the statement is accurate for the US population. But not for the global population. I'm open to being corrected on my understanding of the US data.

It may be that sometimes people in the US come across data valid for the US and incorrectly assume it applies globally.

[Grigoris]

Do you have an agenda too?

No agenda on my part, just trying to understand whether a statement like, "Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females," has any factual basis at all. It turns out that, if my reading of the US data is correct, the statement is accurate for the US population. But not for the global population. I'm open to being corrected on my understanding of the US data.

It may be that sometimes people in the US come across data valid for the US and incorrectly assume it applies globally.

The data has one major problem, while it is possible to report overall percentages of men vs women infected with HIV it is almost impossible to say if the infection happened via IV drug use and during what type of sex. Why? Because when a bisexual male (for example) presents as infected with HIV how can you know if he was infected during homosexual sex or heterosexual sex? If a heterosexual woman (who is also an IV drug user) presents as infected with HIV, how do you know if she was infected during the IV drug use or during the sex? How do you know if the man she caught it from was infected during homosexual sex, IV drug use, or was born infected? And when multiple partners are involved, well...

As for Sadhaka, given the views they expressed in other threads here, I would wager that they have never looked at statistics, that they are just a homophobic bigot.

[Mantrik]

Do you have an agenda too?

No agenda on my part, just trying to understand whether a statement like, "Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females," has any factual basis at all. It turns out that, if my reading of the US data is correct, the statement is accurate for the US population. But not for the global population. I'm open to being corrected on my understanding of the US data.

It may be that sometimes people in the US come across data valid for the US and incorrectly assume it applies globally.

Monkeys to humans, Africa to Haiti, Prostitutes, Gays, Drug Addicts - the blame game people play is pretty extensive as the source is traced back, but they tend to focus on the most recent and extensive related to their own culture. Obviously, the spread reflects the geography and the societal pattern of unprotected sex and needle sharing. But in this context, what matters most is if Lamas deliberately or carelessly infected followers who they had seduced.

Why does it matter now? Because there may be lessons to be learned. I have seen people follow a Lama, even a 'monk', and end up having sex with them. But what has been said here about the impossibility of brainwashing is only partially true - people are willing to follow a saviour, a holy being, and eventually may believe that sex with the holy being will help them on their path, or their love is so great they have reached the point of wanting a commitment. It is very unlikely they started out with the aim of sex with their teacher - their minds were vulnerable, and I have spotted potential 'prey' myself who did indeed end up trashed at the hands of Vajrayana teachers.

Their motivation for having sex with the Guru is often produced as the result of mind games, whether than be seduction or spiritual dependence and awe. Gurus who are corrupt don't restrict themselves to seeking out sex, of course. They may want all of a follower's money, or just plain adulation. The 'pyramid' nature of cults works this way, so the first few who are hooked by the Guru are sent out to hook others. It is so easy when Highest Yoga Tantra 'secrets' are part of the mix.

So, in short, at least one person has died. Whether they were killed depends on your perspective, but to me a Lama with HIV who knowingly has unprotected sex with a student who then dies, has killed them. I have also seen too much evidence of deep psychological harm from exploitation of students by Vajrayana teachers to think it is a harmless bit of fun. In the UK a person is deemed not to be capable of assent if drunk.........I'd say the same when spiritually intoxicated and overwhelmed by a charismatic teacher. If a night class pottery teacher seduced a student they may well face the sack....I'd argue the same applies to Lamas who should be formally expelled from their sangha and formally disrobed if they are monastics, and publically disgraced. Being famous for a few books and putting on a good song and dance act doesn't persuade me that any of the aforementioned big beasts of Vajrayana deserve any less.

[Minobu]

Do you have an agenda too?

No agenda on my part, just trying to understand whether a statement like, "Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females," has any factual basis at all. It turns out that, if my reading of the US data is correct, the statement is accurate for the US population. But not for the global population. I'm open to being corrected on my understanding of the US data.

It may be that sometimes people in the US come across data valid for the US and incorrectly assume it applies globally.

HIV is spread through needles used in drugs, from male to female and female to male and male to male and maybe with certain sex practices can be transferred between female and female..shared dildos ...and other stuff...

signalling out any one of the above as more than the other skews the problem of accepting society as a whole ,needs to understand the consequences of this disease.

Do we really need to blame one group over the other....does it help...stats change...understanding changes as well...we need to take a mature and compassionate approach to this dreadful disease ...

[DGA]

Dharma centers tend to attract broken people. Why? Because Dharma diagnoses the problem of suffering, and offers a means to the eradication of all of it--not just mine, but everyone's. Broken people tend to be aware of the hurt they carry, and may be aware also of the hurt they inflict on others. A promise of becoming able to not hurt or live in a way that is at least less hurtful is mighty appealing here.

What happens when you have a charismatic leader of any kind, a competent master or otherwise, surrounded by broken people who are eager to learn, encouraged to follow direction, and hopeful that learning and following direction will lead them away from the hurt and toward a better way?

Use your imagination.

Sex isn't the problem here. The difficulty of being a broken person is the problem: vulnerable to misdirection, and very capable of volunteering to be exploited (perhaps without the exploiter even knowing he or she is abusing a situation).

It is true that practitioners ought to be adults, anticipating trouble and avoiding it, taking responsibility, not duping oneself. The problem is that adulting is hard when you are Not There Yet, and are in fact trying to learn how to be a grownup at whatever age.

[DGA]

There is one legitimate crime in this thread, however. Look at the title and tell me why there's a hyphen where an em dash ought to be?

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qan ... q0002.html

[PuerAzaelis]

I have to confess the em dash confuses me - why not just use the colon, I mean ":"?

[anjali]

No agenda on my part, just trying to understand whether a statement like, "Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females," has any factual basis at all. It turns out that, if my reading of the US data is correct, the statement is accurate for the US population. But not for the global population. I'm open to being corrected on my understanding of the US data.

The data has one major problem, while it is possible to report overall percentages of men vs women infected with HIV it is almost impossible to say if the infection happened via IV drug use and during what type of sex. Why? Because when a bisexual male (for example) presents as infected with HIV how can you know if he was infected during homosexual sex or heterosexual sex? If a heterosexual woman (who is also an IV drug user) presents as infected with HIV, how do you know if she was infected during the IV drug use or during the sex? How do you know if the man she caught it from was infected during homosexual sex, IV drug use, or was born infected? And when multiple partners are involved, well...

Good comment.

While acknowledging that data collection is difficult, CDC data for the US population seems very clear. Here is a table excerpt taken directly from the CDC report, Diagnoses of HIV Infection in the United States and Dependent Areas, 2015, p. 19, with highlights:

HIV stats in the US from CDC with highlights.png (92.16 KiB) Viewed 2832 times

1. Diagnoses among females are primarily attributed to heterosexual contact.
   Which supports the first part of the assertion that females get HIV primarily from males (either hetero or bi).
2. Diagnoses among males are primarily attributed to homosexual contact.
   Which supports the second part of the assertion that males don't usually get it from females.
3. From the data it is unknown is whether females contract HIV primarily from bi or primarily from hetero men. Although, to be fair to the original claim, it was only asserted that bisexual men transmit HIV to females, which is correct.

Given what you've said above, is it your belief that these statistics from the CDC are inaccurate and therefor unreliable?

[anjali]

signalling out any one of the above as more than the other skews the problem of accepting society as a whole ,needs to understand the consequences of this disease.

Do we really need to blame one group over the other....does it help...stats change...understanding changes as well...we need to take a mature and compassionate approach to this dreadful disease ...

Indeed. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason to single out groups is for epidemiological reasons: Identifying high risk groups so that appropriate health measures can be taken to interrupt the spread of an infectious disease. Identifying groups for the purposes of a moral agenda is reprehensible.

[Quay]

...
Given what you've said above, is it your belief that these statistics from the CDC are inaccurate and therefor unreliable?

I'll jump in for one thing. If you're going to go grab a chart to continue to try to support a regional subset of data against a poster claiming global cause of all data then in order to be truthful one really needs to read the entire report and see the context of the data. For these charts the CDC notes:

Please use caution when interpreting data on diagnoses of HIV infection. HIV surveillance reports may not be representative of all persons with HIV because not all infected persons have been (1) tested or (2) tested at a time when the infection could be detected and diagnosed. Also, some states offer anonymous HIV testing; the results of anonymous tests are not reported to the confidential name-based HIV registries of state and local health departments. Therefore, reports of confidential test results may not represent all persons who tested positive for HIV infection. In addition, testing patterns are influenced by many factors, including the extent to which test- ing is routinely offered to specific groups and the availability of, and access to, medical care and test- ing services. The data presented in this report provide minimum counts of persons for whom HIV infection has been diagnosed and reported to the surveillance system. Finally, because jurisdictions’ surveillance practices differ, jurisdictions’ reporting and updating of a person’s clinical and vital status also differ. The completeness of reporting of HIV infection is esti- mated at more than 80%.

To put it briefly, this is the best data they can get, one should "use caution when interpreting it on diagnoses of HIV infection," and that there is a probable +/-v20% error rate for which there is currently no way to correct.

[anjali]

To put it briefly, this is the best data they can get, one should "use caution when interpreting it on diagnoses of HIV infection," and that there is a probable +/-v20% error rate for which there is currently no way to correct.

Good point.

[Jesse]

I just wanted to post something related to the original topic. Most people (If not all) Begin their spiritual journey in a totally naive state. They become like children, willing to accept or grasp anything they consider sacred, or spiritual. They will believe things without question, they will believe literally anything they are told is a spiritual truth... regardless of how foolish, silly, and out there these beliefs are. Think new agers, and spirit animals, or stones that can heal your 'chakra'.

In fact, many (good) teachers use this state (sometimes called beginners mind, or Shoshin) to accelerate and enhance the teaching of their students. However, we must be careful because there are many fake, and malicious people who claim to be Sages, Buddhas, and Teachers who will manipulate people with it. Cult leaders are very familiar with this state and abuse it to the extreme. In this state, our minds become like a sponge and will absorb whatever is thrown at it without engaging any critical thinking skills/defenses.

Look at the way most newbies act, they adopt the mannerisms, speech patterns, culture, and sometimes even the language of their teachers, and of teachers they watch or see in videos. When these naive people first begin meditation, and through hard practice, they also begin having 'spiritual experiences', which can indeed be intense and overwhelming for some, using these experiences as 'proof', it becomes very easy for ethically corrupt teachers to manipulate you.

I'm sure everyone has heard a story of how just being in the presence of a great teacher can cause you to have spiritual experiences, bliss, and yadda, yadda. This is simply due to belief, faith, and the effects of self-contemplative practice. People really believe their teachers have special powers or are spiritually special in some way, these beliefs are very dangerous.. especially for the spiritually naive.

Meditation takes a while to learn, there are all sorts of states one can end up in in the beginning, due to karma, circumstances, and just plain meditating incorrectly. Hypnosis is very closely related to meditation, and through meditation, one can end up in a very suggestive, hypnotic state.

Combine this with the fact that many people view their teachers as Enlightened, or as Buddhas, or as Reincarnations of enlightened masters, and it becomes VERY easy for us to misattribute the cause of certain experiences and feelings to a teacher when they, in fact, are coming from ourselves, and as products of our practices, and our faith/beliefs..

Feelings of bliss are very common, and when practicing alot.. a very ordinary experience can put you in a state of bliss, or in a twilight state. When in these states someone could very easily trick you... for example into sleeping with them as a form of 'practice'.. or having you donate large sums of money to them, etc.

Many may disagree with me, and that's fine.. but I read a few comments throughout this thread that made me want to post this information, just as a heads up. Ignorance is harmful. The cure for ignorance is knowledge.

Everyone who approaches spirituality in a serious way will have the experience of being like a child again. Especially Westerners who were brought up in a materialistic society, with materialistic worldviews, when we first begin understanding and embracing eastern views of reality, and understanding the concepts of emptiness, and impermanence, it can also throw us for a loop, and cause some confusion, and mental issues. We go through stages where we begin to view ourselves, and the world very differently, and life can even become very dreamlike.

These issues are usually temporary, and a good teacher will guide you through it. This is why it's so important to have a good teacher, in a good lineage, who's well respected and has no 'warnings' associated with them.

I wish everyone well and hope you never have the experience of being manipulated or harmed by people who are supposed to be our spiritual friends and teachers.

[tingdzin]

Never too many "heads up"s.

Still, we should also remember that things are never black and white.

[cky]

Too add a bit to Jesse's great post:

There seems to be a problem with expectation and projections when it comes to how (western?) students approach Dharma teachers.

Let's remind ourselves: What exactly is a Dharma teacher, a Lama? The most common requirement, at least as far as I have heard, is that you have to have a clear experience in Nature Of Mind, Buddha nature, Dharmakaya or whatever your tradition calls it. This means you've entered Bhumi 1 from a Bodhisattvayana point of view or you've entered stream from a Sravakayana point of view. It means you have a clear experience of where the goal of the path is, you've been to the summit so to speak, and therefore you are hopefully able to lead others there, too. Of course this has to be acknowledged by your teacher who should see you fit for teaching etcetera.

Will such a Dharma teacher be able to direct you towards the goal? Sure. Are they a holy being who's every action is without fault? Of course not. To expect this is just a dream from fairy tale land on your own side. It is pretty naive. And certainly a problem, but less for the teacher. These projections are strong and such are the disappointments that follow them inevitably. The projections can either take the path of cooling down over time, with little reality check disappointments here and there, or they could explode in one big s***-hits-the-fan scenario where you either come to your senses or leave the teacher behind, leave the Sangha, or whatever else your habit patterns dictate.

Whatever the case, we should see Dharma teachers for what they are and actually listen to what they teach instead of analysing their every move and behaviour. Of course, let's not be naive, let's look out for weird people, let's keep common sense tuned in for spotting exploitations and fake teachings. But my feeling here is that there is a lot of overdoing the protection side in some western students. Sometimes I think we're so paranoid about following the wrong teacher that we miss a lot of opportunities for learning real Dharma.

Take Trungpa Rinpoche as an example. Have the people criticising him actually read or listened to his work? His behaviour might have been outrageous from time to time, but this man was a genius when it comes to teaching Dharma to western minds. A precious gem. If your fear of the teacher drinking and making out with students keeps you away from the pure Dharma he has to offer, I really feel bad for you: Grow up and learn to manage your projections.

[Grigoris]

Why are women drawn to cults? is a section from the 27 minute "Women in Cults" interview in the series "The Conversation" by the BBC.

Prayers and preparation for the apocalypse - two women share with Kim Chakanetsa their experiences of life in strict religious communities they would call cults.

Natacha Tormey was born into an international evangelical group and led a highly regimented life in communes in Thailand, Indonesia and France. She says physical discipline and sexual abuse were common, and as children they were separated from their parents. As a teenager she began to question the ideas of the leaders, and at 18 she left the cult and her family behind. Natacha has now settled in the UK and is the author of 'Cults - A Bloodstained History'.

Claire Ashman grew up in a strict religious community in Australia. She left at 18 to get married, but a few years later her husband joined them up to what she now calls a doomsday cult. Claire and her eight children spent their life behind barbed wire fences and there was limited contact with the outside world. Much time was spent preparing for an impending apocalypse. A decade ago, Claire and her family left. She now calls herself an anti-cult activist.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

What exactly is a Dharma teacher, a Lama? The most common requirement, at least as far as I have heard, is that you have to have a clear experience in Nature Of Mind, Buddha nature, Dharmakaya or whatever your tradition calls it. This means you've entered Bhumi 1 from a Bodhisattvayana point of view or you've entered stream from a Sravakayana point of view. It means you have a clear experience of where the goal of the path is, you've been to the summit so to speak, and therefore you are hopefully able to lead others there, too.

Who told you that? I really really wish that was true! The impression I get is that you're lucky if the rinpoches have that level of stable realization. And even then there's no guarantee--at all!

[Anonymous X]

Take Trungpa Rinpoche as an example. Have the people criticising him actually read or listened to his work? His behaviour might have been outrageous from time to time, but this man was a genius when it comes to teaching Dharma to western minds. A precious gem. If your fear of the teacher drinking and making out with students keeps you away from the pure Dharma he has to offer, I really feel bad for you: Grow up and learn to manage your projections.

Genius has nothing to do with the realization of Dharma and Buddhanature. There have been specialists in all kinds of fields that were called genius. We respect that study and ability of someone to communicate in their field of expertise but it proves nothing about the actual state of that person and the actions that can cause harm to another through their own ignorance. While it's not fair to single out Trungpa as someone who has indeed harmed others through their actions (many accusations from his students have been aired), this is a fairly common occurence in religious groups across the board including the Catholic Church.

It seems as if you want the words of someone to stand in place of actions that were Trungpa's karmic afflictions. He never overcame his personal problems and this is what also mixes with his interactions with people. Realization is always about the inability to do harm. Telling all the people who have been exploited by teachers that their words are the thing, not what they do is laughable and makes no sense on any level and you want us to grow up? Sorry, I cannot even come close your suggestion.

Recently, there has been a lot of revelation of Sasaki Roshi's behavior as head of L.A.'s Zendo. You can find articles on the web if this kind of stuff interests you.

[Anonymous X]

What exactly is a Dharma teacher, a Lama? The most common requirement, at least as far as I have heard, is that you have to have a clear experience in Nature Of Mind, Buddha nature, Dharmakaya or whatever your tradition calls it. This means you've entered Bhumi 1 from a Bodhisattvayana point of view or you've entered stream from a Sravakayana point of view. It means you have a clear experience of where the goal of the path is, you've been to the summit so to speak, and therefore you are hopefully able to lead others there, too.

Who told you that? I really really wish that was true! The impression I get is that you're lucky if the rinpoches have that level of stable realization. And even then there's no guarantee--at all!

Unfortunately, you are probably right.