Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

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amanitamusc
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:08 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse. Students liked to rationalize this kind of behavior with 'Crazy Wisdom'. I see little difference in teachers like Trungpa, Osho, Da Free John, and many others, whose own karmic impulses were never 'cut through'. The only blame I lay on them is the exploitation of others which was rampant in all these groups. For some, being an exceptional scholar/academic, having some power/siddhis that are used to 'influence' others, are not what Buddhahood is all about. People need to use their intelligence whenever getting involved with a teacher. Maybe in the beginning, there is a kind of naivete to one's search, sooner or later, the signs begin to appear that these teachers are not what they claim to be. In fact, the bigger the organization, the more skeptical I become.
Have you even met any of these teachers ?

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Nosta
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:13 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
Look its the one from the pure land come to :stirthepot:

?? Can you explain your toughts? Didnt get the idea...

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:18 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Nosta wrote:Regarding AIDS and lamas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin
«Ösel Tendzin (Tibetan: འོད་གསལ་བསྟན་འཛིན་, Wylie: 'od gsal bstan 'dzin) (1943–1990) was a western Buddhist. He was Chögyam Trungpa's principal student. On August 22, 1976, Chögyam Trungpa empowered Ösel Tendzin as his Vajra Regent and first Western lineage holder in the Karma Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism.[1] On August 25, 1990, Ösel Tendzin died of HIV/AIDS in San Francisco, California.[2] His wife, Lila Rich, and a group of his students continue to live in Ojai, California.»
It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse. Students liked to rationalize this kind of behavior with 'Crazy Wisdom'. I see little difference in teachers like Trungpa, Osho, Da Free John, and many others, whose own karmic impulses were never 'cut through'. The only blame I lay on them is the exploitation of others which was rampant in all these groups. For some, being an exceptional scholar/academic, having some power/siddhis that are used to 'influence' others, are not what Buddhahood is all about. People need to use their intelligence whenever getting involved with a teacher. Maybe in the beginning, there is a kind of naivete to one's search, sooner or later, the signs begin to appear that these teachers are not what they claim to be. In fact, the bigger the organization, the more skeptical I become.
Have you even met any of these teachers ?
Yes.

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cky
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by cky » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:46 am

Anonymous X wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:Have you even met any of these teachers ?
Yes.
Please share your experience with them, if you don't mind!

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:35 pm

cky wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:Have you even met any of these teachers ?
Yes.
Please share your experience with them, if you don't mind!
I will pass, thanks.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:39 pm

Anonymous X wrote: It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse.
Promiscuity? :o :o :o

How terrible.

Drinking?

Oh my gawd...


This is issue is tired and old. Trungpa was a genius, who cares if he was "enlightened?" Sogyal has been criticized over and over again.

The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Nosta
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Nosta » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.
Both are bad, but in the case of Sogyal, if it is true the sexual abuse, then thats even worst than anything else.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:08 pm

Nosta wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.
Both are bad, but in the case of Sogyal, if it is true the sexual abuse, then thats even worst than anything else.
Sogyal's students are all adults. People may not approve of Sogyal's behavior, but on the other hand, it really is no one's business with whom he has sex and who has sex with him as long as it does not amount to rape. After all, Trungpa slept with many, many of his students.

People are very hung up on and neurotic about sex in Western Buddhism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sogyal's students are all adults. People may not approve of Sogyal's behavior, but on the other hand, it really is no one's business with whom he has sex and who has sex with him as long as it does not amount to rape. After all, Trungpa slept with many, many of his students.

People are very hung up on and neurotic about sex in Western Buddhism.
Maybe so, but this is really unforgivable:

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse.
Promiscuity? :o :o :o

How terrible.

Drinking?

Oh my gawd...


This is issue is tired and old. Trungpa was a genius, who cares if he was "enlightened?" Sogyal has been criticized over and over again.

The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.
Einstein was also a genius and his personal life was a mess. I also don't care what these people do. Just don't try and convince me they are so called 'liberated'. I've witnessed the train wreck that they've caused first hand.

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse.
Promiscuity? :o :o :o

How terrible.

Drinking?

Oh my gawd...


This is issue is tired and old. Trungpa was a genius, who cares if he was "enlightened?" Sogyal has been criticized over and over again.

The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.
Passing HIV onto others who then die is not a matter for levity, but of course this remark, like my last, will probably be deleted.
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:46 pm

Having sex with women is one thing.

Contracting HIV via homosexual acts (this and sharing needles being the most common way it happens) and spreading it around is another.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:28 pm

Why wasn't he charged with a crime for that behavior btw? It seems like some kind of reckless assault or even homicide to me, like drunk driving.
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by emaho » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:43 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:Why wasn't he charged with a crime for that behavior btw? It seems like some kind of reckless assault or even homicide to me, like drunk driving.
Because back in those days most people who caught HIV died very soon.
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:00 pm

Right.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:33 pm

Sādhaka wrote:Having sex with women is one thing.

Contracting HIV via homosexual acts (this and sharing needles being the most common way it happens) and spreading it around is another.
Your level of ignorant homophobic bias is astounding.

One does not contract AIDS, one contracts HIV.

HIV is mainly contracted via heterosexual sex. 51% of HIV infected people in the world are women. They did not contract it from homosexual sex.

Female sex workers are approximately 14 times more likely to be infected than other women of reproductive age. The "Johns", given they are having sex with women, are theoretically heterosexual.

Based on data reported by 30 countries, the pooled HIV prevalence among women who inject drugs was 13 per cent compared with 9 per cent among men who inject drugs.

http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/hi ... nd-figures
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:35 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:Why wasn't he charged with a crime for that behavior btw? It seems like some kind of reckless assault or even homicide to me, like drunk driving.
Osel Tenzin died before such negligence laws about knowingly transmitting HIV were passed. He also apparently believed his penis was so magical it would not transmit the virus.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Miroku » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:41 pm

Don't we all believe our penises are magical?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:47 pm

Having consensual sex with multiple partners is completely and utterly legal. Even for a Tibetan lay teacher/lama.

Now if his behaviour was predatory or not is a different story. If it is within the bounds of legal activity, one can use any means they wish to garner sexual favour. If it is ethical or not is a different story. But ethical according to whose/what norms?

Knowingly infecting people with HIV, well, that is a different story all together.

The two instances are not
comparable.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:57 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:Having sex with women is one thing.

Contracting HIV via homosexual acts (this and sharing needles being the most common way it happens) and spreading it around is another.
Your level of ignorant homophobic bias is astounding.

One does not contract AIDS, one contracts HIV.

HIV is mainly contracted via heterosexual sex. 51% of HIV infected people in the world are women. They did not contract it from homosexual sex.

Female sex workers are approximately 14 times more likely to be infected than other women of reproductive age. The "Johns", given they are having sex with women, are theoretically heterosexual.

Based on data reported by 30 countries, the pooled HIV prevalence among women who inject drugs was 13 per cent compared with 9 per cent among men who inject drugs.

http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/hi ... nd-figures
I said contract hiv, not aids. First hiv is contracted, then it becomes aids later on.

Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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