Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by smcj » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:59 pm

Having consensual sex with multiple partners is completely and utterly legal. Even for a Tibetan lay teacher/lama.
You don't live in the U.S. In present day America clergy/congregant sex is considered a breach of fiduciary responsibility, like a psychiatrist sleeping with a client. It is grounds for a lawsuit even if the student initiates it. That creates the interesting potential scenario where you can seduce a clergyman and then sue him for it. Or you can have a multi-year affair with them and then sue, claiming that you had absolutely no responsibility for your own actions as it was 100% his responsibility to not have the affair. Obviously that's not very good karma, but it is contemporary society.

If you're a student don't sleep with your spiritual teacher. The ensuing lama drama isn't worth it.

If you're a spiritual teacher in the U.S. don't sleep with your students. The legal liability is immense. Go find somebody else. Maybe in France it is legally ok, but not here.
Last edited by smcj on Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 8 times in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:Why wasn't he charged with a crime for that behavior btw? It seems like some kind of reckless assault or even homicide to me, like drunk driving.
Osel Tenzin died before such negligence laws about knowingly transmitting HIV were passed. He also apparently believed his penis was so magical it would not transmit the virus.
I am not shocked when a spiritual Guru exploits the relationship with a student to get sex, nor by the promises of spiritual attainment which may accompany it.

But when death results............ well, I am more shocked...........and angry.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:09 pm

Sādhaka wrote:Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.
Substantiate this ridiculous claim.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.
Substantiate this ridiculous claim.
It's getting very off-topic, but I know what youre driving at. The truth is simply that one person gives it to another ,regardless of gender. I'm more interested in the Gurus who people seem to think can be enlightened beacons of compassion whilst exploiting followers for sex and passing on STD's. Malcolm's seeming dismissal of any serious consequences does not sit well with me, having seen people destroyed within the (cult which cannot be mentioned) and another die in very relevant circumstances.
Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........gender is irrelevant as the relationship is between exploiter and exploited.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:36 pm

Mantrik wrote:Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........
Unfortunately even brainwashing (of adults) requires consent. You cannot brainwash me if I do not agree to being brainwashed. Now why some people feel the need to be brainwashed, and why others take advantage of them, that is a different story altogether.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:10 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mantrik wrote:Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........
Unfortunately even brainwashing (of adults) requires consent. You cannot brainwash me if I do not agree to being brainwashed. Now why some people feel the need to be brainwashed, and why others take advantage of them, that is a different story altogether.
You are a psychologist, but this is simplistic. The process involves persuasion leading to consent, leading to further persuasion, trust, separation from other people who may interfere etc etc. The person who consents to each stage may well not have done so if initially presented with the 'end' proposition. You really think the (unmentionable cult) started out by monks asking for sex straight up, without a steady process of establishing dependency and anxiety for which the inevitable consequence was the sexual union?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:29 pm

Mantrik wrote:You are a psychologist, but this is simplistic. The process involves persuasion leading to consent, leading to further persuasion, trust, separation from other people who may interfere etc etc. The person who consents to each stage may well not have done so if initially presented with the 'end' proposition. You really think the (unmentionable cult) started out by monks asking for sex straight up, without a steady process of establishing dependency and anxiety for which the inevitable consequence was the sexual union?
And yet you saw through it while others did not. People are not always 100% victims. People obviously benefit from the relationship too, otherwise they would not CHOOSE to remain in it. Brainwashing is not a 100% passive process, you also have to brainwash yourself into accepting it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by smcj » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:54 pm

People are not always 100% victims. People obviously benefit from the relationship too, otherwise they would not CHOOSE to remain in it.
You are speaking from a common sense perspective. This is not how things are here in the U.S. The cult of victimhood has gained legal foothold.

I am not condoning or endorsing people betraying a trust for personal gratification. I am against that 100%. However the current legal assumption here in the U.S. is that all clergy/congregant sexual activity is of that nature, regardless of who initiates it or how many years it lasts. The only criteria for successful litigation is that the congregant is upset and wants to sue. It seems that there should be more balance to the issue than that. What that might be I don't know. But until then it is best to not walk into that minefield. As Nancy Reagan said, "just say no".
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mantrik wrote:You are a psychologist, but this is simplistic. The process involves persuasion leading to consent, leading to further persuasion, trust, separation from other people who may interfere etc etc. The person who consents to each stage may well not have done so if initially presented with the 'end' proposition. You really think the (unmentionable cult) started out by monks asking for sex straight up, without a steady process of establishing dependency and anxiety for which the inevitable consequence was the sexual union?
And yet you saw through it while others did not. People are not always 100% victims. People obviously benefit from the relationship too, otherwise they would not CHOOSE to remain in it. Brainwashing is not a 100% passive process, you also have to brainwash yourself into accepting it.
Failure to see that you are being brainwashed, or going along with it, is not willingness, it is vulnerability. Your argument is like saying you wanted to be punched because you couldn't see it coming. Not always, as you say, in theory, but I can only speak from experience, and it is gruesomely fascinating to see the gradual process in action. I saw an Australian Imam on video recently and he claimed that young men could be radicalised in as little as 3 sermons. It doesn't matter how many were or were not , in order for the process to be harmful.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28254
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:21 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.
Substantiate this ridiculous claim.
It's getting very off-topic, but I know what youre driving at. The truth is simply that one person gives it to another ,regardless of gender. I'm more interested in the Gurus who people seem to think can be enlightened beacons of compassion whilst exploiting followers for sex and passing on STD's. Malcolm's seeming dismissal of any serious consequences does not sit well with me, having seen people destroyed within the (cult which cannot be mentioned) and another die in very relevant circumstances.
Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........gender is irrelevant as the relationship is between exploiter and exploited.
I know many students of Sogyal. I have never seen any evidence that any of them are "brainwashed." The same applies to students of CTR.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mantrik wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Substantiate this ridiculous claim.
It's getting very off-topic, but I know what youre driving at. The truth is simply that one person gives it to another ,regardless of gender. I'm more interested in the Gurus who people seem to think can be enlightened beacons of compassion whilst exploiting followers for sex and passing on STD's. Malcolm's seeming dismissal of any serious consequences does not sit well with me, having seen people destroyed within the (cult which cannot be mentioned) and another die in very relevant circumstances.
Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........gender is irrelevant as the relationship is between exploiter and exploited.
I know many students of Sogyal. I have never seen any evidence that any of them are "brainwashed." The same applies to students of CTR.
Your flippancy was in a response to a post about Tenzin. Mods seem nervous about giving the full facts but they remain for anyone with Google.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Norwegian
Posts: 1399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Norwegian » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:33 am

Mantrik wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Mantrik wrote:
It's getting very off-topic, but I know what youre driving at. The truth is simply that one person gives it to another ,regardless of gender. I'm more interested in the Gurus who people seem to think can be enlightened beacons of compassion whilst exploiting followers for sex and passing on STD's. Malcolm's seeming dismissal of any serious consequences does not sit well with me, having seen people destroyed within the (cult which cannot be mentioned) and another die in very relevant circumstances.
Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........gender is irrelevant as the relationship is between exploiter and exploited.
I know many students of Sogyal. I have never seen any evidence that any of them are "brainwashed." The same applies to students of CTR.
Your flippancy was in a response to a post about Tenzin. Mods seem nervous about giving the full facts but they remain for anyone with Google.
What you perceive as flippancy, was not a response to a post about Tenzin. Anonymous X wrote two completely separate sentences, one about Tenzin, one about Trungpa. Malcolm commented on the issue of Trungpa, not Tenzin.

smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:01 am

Using Dharma teachings in order to manipulate someone into giving oneself gratification is as low as you can go. Not cool at all.

However life isn't that simple, and teacher/student relationships can have legitimacy. The current President of France is married to his high school drama teacher. Who wants to go intervene on his behalf and call her out by telling her she is betraying his trust?

This of course avoids the entire subject of karma mudra practice, which isn't fun to talk about on DW--so let's not.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1483
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by anjali » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:44 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sādhaka wrote:Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.
Substantiate this ridiculous claim.
Sadhaka can speak for himself. Doing a little research on the subject, I found the following info from the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The data is valid only in the US for 2015:
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/overview/ataglance.html wrote:
  • Gay and bisexual men accounted for 82% (26,375) of HIV diagnoses among males and 67% of all diagnoses.
  • Heterosexual contact accounted for 24% (9,339) of HIV diagnoses.
  • Women accounted for 19% (7,402) of HIV diagnoses.
  • Diagnoses among women are primarily attributed to heterosexual contact (86%, or 6,391) or injection drug use (13%, or 980).
  • Six percent (2,392) of HIV diagnoses in the United States were attributed to injection drug use (IDU) and another 3% (1,202) to male-to-male sexual contactf and IDU.
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

User avatar
Quay
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Quay » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:57 am

anjali wrote:...The data is valid only in the US for 2015....
And if you go to international data sites like the WHO or other UN branches, you will find that what Grigoris said is completely factual and that what Sadhaka claims is not. Globally the picture is quite clear while of course different countries in different years manifest different patterns.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1483
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by anjali » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:19 am

Quay wrote:
anjali wrote:...The data is valid only in the US for 2015....
And if you go to international data sites like the WHO or other UN branches, you will find that what Grigoris said is completely factual and that what Sadhaka claims is not. Globally the picture is quite clear while of course different countries in different years manifest different patterns.
Agreed. That's why it's always important to identify the population that a statistical claim applies to. ;)
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:52 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mantrik wrote:Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........
Unfortunately even brainwashing (of adults) requires consent. You cannot brainwash me if I do not agree to being brainwashed. Now why some people feel the need to be brainwashed, and why others take advantage of them, that is a different story altogether.
You might want to rethink this................. :shrug:

Lhasa
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Lhasa » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:06 am

If a tantrik 'master' blasts all your chakras at once and puts you into a state of bliss
so deep you can't think or resist, there is no way you can give consent.
You are a zombie....Siddhis matter.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:03 am

Lhasa wrote:If a tantrik 'master' blasts all your chakras at once and puts you into a state of bliss
so deep you can't think or resist, there is no way you can give consent.
You are a zombie....Siddhis matter.
That's a good excuse... :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:18 am

Lhasa wrote:If a tantrik 'master' blasts all your chakras at once and puts you into a state of bliss
so deep you can't think or resist, there is no way you can give consent.
You are a zombie....Siddhis matter.
This is not possible. You are reading too many comic books. No matter what experience there is, you are there with it.

Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests