Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:06 am

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

I was referring to the Iraq war, and the racheting up of hostilities against Iran.
Not to mention the open violence being inflicted upon Muslims in many Christians countries.
You talked as if I deny the role of US foreign policies. I did not.

By your argument, we should expect Tibetans to be terrorizing cities in China with suicide bombing and other acts of terror.
Self immolation is an act of terror.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
The Cicada
Posts: 766
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by The Cicada » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:33 am

Malcolm wrote:Self immolation is an act of terror.
But then, why choose a method of "terrorism" that only inflicts physical violence on oneself in lieu of one that also harms one's antagonizers, as suicide bombers do?

In fact a truly Machiavellian terrorist with no doctrinal rubric to cast an act of suicidal terrorism in a positive light would simply act to kill as many people as possible while working to minimize the harm done to themselves to the greatest possible degree. This is the tactic of your average Unibomber or your run-of-the-mill Timothy McVeigh off the street.

Or in the case of your neighborhood Prescilliano, it could mean having a grand ol' time offing cops and other government officials interspersed with moments crafted with the feel of a weekend barbecue to incinerate the bodies of your rivals and play soccer with their heads like a couple of knuckleheads. (NSFW news content.)

Weaving back in the original topic of the thread, personally I have no problem with the cultural practices of people immigrating to the West from Muslim countries, but only with the doctrines of the Islamic religion, including the Koran itself. I think we could be more sensitive to customs and practices that we might hautily look askance at because of our own acculturation and stop trying to change the way people choose to live their lives.

As an example, one thing that I've been kicking around in my head for a while, but didn't consider seriously until the fidget spinner craze, is the concept of the "secular burka," which would be more like a very baggy pantsuit, with head and facial covering, and offer comfort similar to yoga pants and leggings​ but in the opposite direction. It could be modified for nursing women so as to cover themselves and their child completely and even be a cool way to do the kind of cosplay that's already so popular with the hijab.

phpBB [video]


As an added benefit, burkas of every type have the effect of shielding women from objectification by men, and a secularized burka could even be worn by some biological men if their disposition makes the option appealing.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:29 am

...and stupidity.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:32 am

The Cicada wrote:As an example, one thing that I've been kicking around in my head for a while, but didn't consider seriously until the fidget spinner craze, is the concept of the "secular burka," which would be more like a very baggy pantsuit, with head and facial covering, and offer comfort similar to yoga pants and leggings​ but in the opposite direction. It could be modified for nursing women so as to cover themselves and their child completely and even be a cool way to do the kind of cosplay that's already so popular with the hijab.
Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

tingdzin
Posts: 1049
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by tingdzin » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:46 am

Malcolm wrote:Self immolation is an act of terror.
Hogwash and horse manure.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:53 am

The Cicada wrote:I have no problem with the cultural practices of people immigrating to the West from Muslim countries, but only with the doctrines of the Islamic religion, including the Koran itself.
Hahaha, if you have problems with Islam, you should have the same problem with its mother and father, Judaism and Christianity.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:57 am

tingdzin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Self immolation is an act of terror.
Hogwash and horse manure.

The Chinese find Tibetan self-immolations terrifying indeed. All acts of terror are grounded in the rage and despair that results from oppression. We Buddhists are nangpas, so we direct that violence inward,
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

AlexanderS
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:58 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by AlexanderS » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Not to mention the open violence being inflicted upon Muslims in many Christians countries.
You talked as if I deny the role of US foreign policies. I did not.

By your argument, we should expect Tibetans to be terrorizing cities in China with suicide bombing and other acts of terror.
Self immolation is an act of terror.
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:40 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote: You talked as if I deny the role of US foreign policies. I did not.

By your argument, we should expect Tibetans to be terrorizing cities in China with suicide bombing and other acts of terror.
Self immolation is an act of terror.
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

AlexanderS
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:58 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by AlexanderS » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Self immolation is an act of terror.
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.
Deluded act on what level?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:49 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.
Deluded act on what level?
Every level. Suicide is suicide.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4812
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.
Deluded act on what level?
Every level. Suicide is suicide.
Yes, and contributing to a culture of "martyrdom" is contributing to further delusion and the cesspool of samsara.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Sherab » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Self immolation is an act of terror.
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.
"Self immolation is an act of terror". This really takes the cake.

Even more disturbing is how self immolation is subsequently indirectly lumped together with suicide bombing through a commonly made mistake in reasoning.

All these twisting and turning just to win a debate? I would think it would be better to agree to disagree than to resort to such devices.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:12 pm

I agree that the act is similar in motivation, but I think the overall social effect of suicide bombing is much, much uglier than self-immolation. Both are ethically unjustifiable acts from my point of view.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Sherab » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:18 pm

Ideology can provide the basis for labelling/differentiating/isolating a certain group of people and making them out to be defective, immoral, or less than human. This then provides the basis for defining certain actions done to these people as good, moral, compassionate or righteous.

For example, it has been argued by Islamic preachers that killing gays is an act of compassion; killing of non-believers is an act that pleases Allah and will be rewarded; people of the Book (Jews, Christians, Catholic) subscribed to faulty beliefs and therefore do not deserve the same rights as Muslims and so on.

This is how/why Steven Weinberg's " but for good people to do evil - that takes religion" rings true.

This is why I consider ideology as the cause and other factors such as US foreign policies, domestic discrimination of minorities, etc. as conditions.

Addressing conditions merely make the cause dormant.

To truly resolve the issue of Islamic terrorism, the cause has to be addressed.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Sherab » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I agree that the act is similar in motivation, but I think the overall social effect of suicide bombing is much, much uglier than self-immolation. Both are ethically unjustifiable acts from my point of view.
I suggest you read the article "Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You" in the attached link. It is on page 30 of the ISIS magazine Dabiq, issue 15. https://azelin.files.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-1522.pdf

Quote from the magazine: "There are exceptions among the disbelievers, no doubt, people who will unabashedly declare that jihad and the laws of the Shari’ah – as well as everything else deemed taboo by the Islam-is-a-peaceful-religion crowd – are in fact completely Islamic, but they tend to be people with far less credibility who are painted as a social fringe, so their voices are dismissed and a large segment of the ignorant masses continues believing the false narrative. As such, it becomes important for us to clarify to the West in unequivocal terms – yet again – why we hate you and why we fight you."

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:54 pm

I've already read lots of stuff from ISIS about why it supposedly does what it does, I don't know why you think it would be any big revelation, and I don't why you'd assume that someone who disagrees with you hasn't read it.

You seem to assume throughout this conversation that my differing with you is a result of my own ignorance, rather than the fact that I simply have a different interpretation and framing of these things than you do. I'm not sure how much more can said, but I would appreciate you not continuing to make that mistake if you want to continue conversation with me. If not, that's fine too. iI has been consistent though, so let me inform you: there are people who are likely privy to the same information you are who simply disagree with you and have a differing interpretation. Believe it or not.

In this case, the assumption that a magazine meant largely as a recruitment tool would somehow lay bare a final answer behind the motivation for terrorism is a very naive one. Of course you can certainly ascertain some of the surface motive of such acts, and certainly some of the strategy, but the notion that you can definitively answer a complex question like this with such a reductionist answer is silly from my point of view. One should certainly not disregard what ISIS says about itself, nor should one assume ISIS is some omniscient organization with a deep enough insight into the psyche of Muslims in general that they know what motivates and any all Muslims to terrorist acts.

I'm gonna go ahead and ask you once again, since the thread seems to be stalling here:

What point is it you are trying to make here precisely?
sherab wrote:To truly resolve the issue of Islamic terrorism, the cause has to be addressed.
How, exactly?

Further, if this logic is true, doesn't it hold for Christianity and Judaism as well? The texts of those beliefs may not have the same emphasis on organized conquest (certainly didn't stop manifest destiny, the crusades, etc. did it?) , but they have heapin' helpings of stuff about massacring non believers and subjugating and destroying and torturing people who violate "God's laws" - that is something that the texts of The Big Three Abrahamic religions seem to share in common. If there is this dormant "cause" in Islam due to it's texts, it must also be there for Judaism and Christianity, do you suggest it is "addressed" there too, and how do you recommend doing that?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:44 pm

Sherab wrote:This is how/why Steven Weinberg's " but for good people to do evil - that takes religion" rings true.
Indeed!

Here is a picture of Rohingya that were burnt alive by Burmese religious zealots...

Image
And the evil religious ideologues driving them (like a herd of unthinking sheep) to violence...

Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:50 pm

Sherab wrote:
To truly resolve the issue of Islamic terrorism, the cause has to be addressed.
You have not even come close to the cause of terrorist acts committed by disgruntled Muslims. You keep insisting it comes from a book, which is a major error.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims

Post by Sherab » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:01 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've already read lots of stuff from ISIS about why it supposedly does what it does, I don't know why you think it would be any big revelation, and I don't why you'd assume that someone who disagrees with you hasn't read it.

You seem to assume throughout this conversation that my differing with you is a result of my own ignorance, rather than the fact that I simply have a different interpretation and framing of these things than you do. I'm not sure how much more can said, but I would appreciate you not continuing to make that mistake if you want to continue conversation with me. If not, that's fine too. iI has been consistent though, so let me inform you: there are people who are likely privy to the same information you are who simply disagree with you and have a differing interpretation. Believe it or not.

In this case, the assumption that a magazine meant largely as a recruitment tool would somehow lay bare a final answer behind the motivation for terrorism is a very naive one. Of course you can certainly ascertain some of the surface motive of such acts, and certainly some of the strategy, but the notion that you can definitively answer a complex question like this with such a reductionist answer is silly from my point of view. One should certainly not disregard what ISIS says about itself, nor should one assume ISIS is some omniscient organization with a deep enough insight into the psyche of Muslims in general that they know what motivates and any all Muslims to terrorist acts.

I'm gonna go ahead and ask you once again, since the thread seems to be stalling here:

What point is it you are trying to make here precisely?
sherab wrote:To truly resolve the issue of Islamic terrorism, the cause has to be addressed.
How, exactly?

Further, if this logic is true, doesn't it hold for Christianity and Judaism as well? The texts of those beliefs may not have the same emphasis on organized conquest (certainly didn't stop manifest destiny, the crusades, etc. did it?) , but they have heapin' helpings of stuff about massacring non believers and subjugating and destroying and torturing people who violate "God's laws" - that is something that the texts of The Big Three Abrahamic religions seem to share in common. If there is this dormant "cause" in Islam due to it's texts, it must also be there for Judaism and Christianity, do you suggest it is "addressed" there too, and how do you recommend doing that?
I find it weird that you don't relate my response to your question (and you are not the only one by the way).

You claimed that the motivation from self-immolation by Tibetans and suicide bombings and ISIS' acts of terror are similar in motivation. The purpose of my reference to the ISIS' article is to show that they are different. If you have read and understood the article and still think that you are right, just say so, I am fine with that. It is really that simple.

Locked

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 37 guests