Unkindness at dharmawheel

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steveb1
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by steveb1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:28 pm

joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?

I suppose that, as "a Buddhist discussion forum", DW posters should _try_ to keep to some standard of compassion and openness to understanding opposing points of view.

However, as another poster said, still, it's just the Internet. So I suppose a balance should be aimed for. And it should be borne in mind that even the most even-tempered people can react negatively, and even informed, wise people can sometimes make mistakes or sincerely post misinformation while believing that they are posting accurate, helpful information.

I've seen videos of Tibetan monks "boxing" by challenging opponents' views - one partner proposes his view and loudly claps his hands to signal that he wants to hear his partner's reply, and then the process is reversed. These guys seem to have found a way of expressing strongly differing views under a strict rules-rubric, watched over by their fellow students and their teachers. That kind of "fighting" seems exemplary toward showing us how to conduct arguments within Buddhist groups.

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Dan74
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Dan74 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:12 am

I think we all have a need to be loved, valued, respected, etc. This is natural (and something that through practice we should take a very careful look at). But to want to satisfy these needs on an internet forum is not likely to go well. Misunderstanding abounds. Absent body language, sound and a real human face in front of us, we tend to respond in fairly brusk fashion. I don't post much, maybe that's why I don't feel like I have any reason to complain, but in the early days of my forum participation (on e-sangha) I did want to be appreciated, form friendships/alliances, etc etc. It always ends in tears.

Best to be clear why we post and assume the best, absent the context of the posts, while expecting as little as possible.

_/|\_

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:27 am

In the absence of 90% of the important components of human communication, body language, facial expression, tone of voice..these debates invariably descend into meta-discussion and projection.
I find that assuming a kindly tone in posts that I disagree with, rather than supplying a voice from my owned stored hurts, can make a huge difference in the way I perceive the other.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by odysseus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:36 am

Dharmawheel is just gossip. It's McBuddhism fast food.

In order to make it more serious, people have to stop taking things too personally. Some of us are alone and have no Sangha and need this forum. If I was a new-comer to Buddhism, I would be scared of the members here.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by kirtu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:53 am

odysseus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:36 am
Dharmawheel is just gossip. It's McBuddhism fast food.

In order to make it more serious, people have to stop taking things too personally. Some of us are alone and have no Sangha and need this forum. If I was a new-comer to Buddhism, I would be scared of the members here.
How can we improve? How can we be more inviting?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:43 am

odysseus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:36 am
Dharmawheel is just gossip. It's McBuddhism fast food.

In order to make it more serious, people have to stop taking things too personally. Some of us are alone and have no Sangha and need this forum. If I was a new-comer to Buddhism, I would be scared of the members here.

I think the "Random Thoughts" thread is kind of fun.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by odysseus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 am

kirtu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:53 am

How can we improve? How can we be more inviting?

Kirt
What do I know? Maybe patience and compassion (as we are all stressed to do) is the key? Well, just be friendly and kind. Metta and understanding. Don't think we know everything, admit some ignorance.

I really don't know what to say. I like the idea of a forum where Buddhists and others can talk, but it needs to be open to all - not only to all our "experts".

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:58 am

odysseus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 am
... "experts".
The fact is both here and at dhammawheel there are people who have been practicing a very, very long time and to get that perspective is extremely helpful whether you agree wit( them or not. Even if they’re just “sharing”.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Ayu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:03 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:58 am
odysseus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 am
... "experts".
The fact is both here and at dhammawheel there are people who have been practicing a very, very long time and to get that perspective is extremely helpful whether you agree wit( them or not. Even if they’re just “sharing”.
Are you also still referring to the OP here?
I hope, it is clear that longtime practice doesn't make everyone an expert for everything...

... and especially that it is no justification for unkindness. I often have the impression that online experts like to express themselves unfriendly against non-experts and new members. Not only at DW but all over the internet. I do not understand why so.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 am

joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?
The OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.

A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:30 pm

Ayu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:03 am
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:58 am
odysseus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 am
... "experts".
The fact is both here and at dhammawheel there are people who have been practicing a very, very long time and to get that perspective is extremely helpful whether you agree wit( them or not. Even if they’re just “sharing”.
Are you also still referring to the OP here?
I hope, it is clear that longtime practice doesn't make everyone an expert for everything...

... and especially that it is no justification for unkindness. I often have the impression that online experts like to express themselves unfriendly against non-experts and new members. Not only at DW but all over the internet. I do not understand why so.
There’s the cliche of the dharma mentor who can singe your eyebrows with his (it’s usually a his) wrath. I guess people like to parrot that.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:06 pm

As an addendum to my post above I would recommend googling 'How To be Kind' by the late Ken Jones. A Zen student who died in his late 80's not long ago.
His quotes from Chekov are worth reading... :smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:17 pm

What is kindness?

I think this is one of those concepts that is not always what it appears to be. I'd like to know what others think.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Jeff H » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 pm

I don’t think DW is a good site for solitary beginners, and I think it’s a mistake to think it should be. But it is invaluable for people who already have some stabilizing groundwork in place, and preferably a teacher to turn to.

What accomplished practitioner ever got where they are by receiving only sweetness and light from their teachers and fellow students? I think the kind of debate found in this thread is, on the whole, very much worthwhile and the level of experience and erudition available here is remarkable. But in order to mine it and benefit from it one must bring a certain level of discernment and their own ground to stand on as a starting place.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:34 pm

My definition would be to place the emphasis on long-term good. Rather than on social emollients. :smile:

Most of the complaints I see about unkindness on Buddhist forums are actually meta-discussion about styles of address. And some of those that make the complaints are often those still circling the runway a year, two years, or three years down the line...still vewwy cwoss.

I cant imagine how they would fare if in the company of some of the Dharma teachers I have met.

Me ( some years ago ) 'I am finding it hard Rinpoche. I am exhausted and unwell. My life is shit'

Chime Rinpoche " DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HARD! YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT HARD! I WATCHED PEOPLE DYING OF COLD AND HUNGER! ( he was one of a party that escaped across the Himalayas in winter) GROW UP!


That was kindness. Thank you Rinpoche... :namaste:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Jeff H » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:07 pm

I agree with Simon E. As I understand Shantideva’s teaching, we should be utterly intolerant of our own delusions (chaps. 4 & 5) and totally patient with others’ delusions (chap. 6). In today’s daily lojong, the commentators all talk about cultivating kindness within ourselves, but the recurring topics about how unkind DW can be are about other people’s behavior.

For me, the point is that if I think some poster has been inappropriately unkind, I need to use that lesson to find a similar unkind inclination in myself and stop it. I may also need to learn when an appropriate unkindness could perhaps wake someone up. And if someone abandons the path because their feelings were hurt, they weren’t ready for the path. Hopefully, they’ll find another way in other than the internet.

I am in awe of many contributors to DW, and I do think some of them are unnecessarily unkind sometimes. But I can’t judge the intentions of anyone else, and certainly not these people who also provide us with so much positive input. Their kindness/unkindness is their business; my kindness/unkindness is my business. As Simon said, learning to process (perceived) unkindnesses done to me is an extremely valuable experience.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:17 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:17 pm
What is kindness?

I think this is one of those concepts that is not always what it appears to be. I'd like to know what others think.

Well, IMO, the truly relevant question is "What is kindness on a Buddhist internet forum?" It's kind of absurd to compare how a Dharma teacher might treat one of their students IRL with how people who are generally speaking not teachers and don't know each other interact online. As far as what kindness on an internet forum is, I would say it's kind of like pornography: You know it when you see it. :smile:
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:47 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:17 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:17 pm
What is kindness?

I think this is one of those concepts that is not always what it appears to be. I'd like to know what others think.

Well, IMO, the truly relevant question is "What is kindness on a Buddhist internet forum?" It's kind of absurd to compare how a Dharma teacher might treat one of their students IRL with how people who are generally speaking not teachers and don't know each other interact online. As far as what kindness on an internet forum is, I would say it's kind of like pornography: You know it when you see it. :smile:
Thank you for the kind response.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:49 pm

My anecdote was not an illustration of the teacher/pupil relationship. There is no one model of that and Chime Rinpoche was not my teacher in any formal sense. It was as I said an example of real kindness.
It was just what I needed at the time.
And that is the criterion of authenticity.
Not whether a form of words conforms to a subjective notion of 'niceness'.

Using that criterion i.e. authenticity of response, among the kindest people on DW are Malcolm, Johnny D, and Greg.

Whether or not one agrees with any particular point they make.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:04 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 am
joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?
The OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.

A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
This is a great story lol...definitely a keeper.
On the op:

I think there is plenty of kindness on DW, IMO most of the issues of 'unkindness' here have to do with the dynamics of online communication and communities, and maybe an little bit of "Get Off my Lawn" occasionally.

It is interesting though, in many ways online people are a blank slate..sometimes I think the narratives we have about people online are mostly about us.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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