Unkindness at dharmawheel

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm

What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:33 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:04 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 am
joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?
The OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.

A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
This is a great story lol...definitely a keeper.
On the op:

I think there is plenty of kindness on DW, IMO most of the issues of 'unkindness' here have to do with the dynamics of online communication and communities, and maybe an little bit of "Get Off my Lawn" occasionally.

It is interesting though, in many ways online people are a blank slate..sometimes I think the narratives we have about people online are mostly about us.
Aye.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by boda » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:36 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 am
joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?
The OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.

A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
Reminds me of the story where a scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. In the story, the frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies "I can't help it, it's my nature."

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
I propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:39 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
Or levels, like Dungeons and Dragons.

dzogchungpa is a 6th level thief, Astus a 35th level cleric, Malcolm a 246th level assassin, etc.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by boda » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
I propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.
Welcome to the spiritual materialism games! :woohoo:

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:49 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
I propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.
As long as we remember that the Buddhas model of Right Speech includes No Bullshitting. He didn't pull his punches.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:53 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:49 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
I propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.
As long as we remember that the Buddhas model of Right Speech includes No Bullshitting. He didn't pull his punches.
Well that post was intended entirely tongue in cheek, but you are right, he didn't. Honesty when well -intended is usually a good policy.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:01 pm

:smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Mantrik » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:48 pm

I wonder if there is sometimes a lazy willingness to treat kindness and compassion as the same thing, and meanings have been obscured and made convenient over time:
.
Modern dictionaries give modern interpretations, but here we may also wonder if those words are equivalents of the original Dharma language of the Buddhas at all, let alone being used properly in English.

If I treat you with 'Kind ness' as 'my kind' then it may be closer to empathy than sympathy. 'Kindness' can also imply treating someone as you would treat your 'kin', not especially better or especially well.

Compassion, feeling 'com passio' may be linked to experiencing a condition 'with suffering' or great emotion, not necessarily about pity or empathy.

Yet we use these words as if we all share a common understanding of what they mean. I'm pretty sure we don't. And that goes without mention of the bitchy and angry rants on forums some people like to pass off as 'wrathful compassion' rather than self-serving viciousness.

We also tweak the words to suit ourselves, so empathy becomes 'miserable compassion' and a slap-down becomes 'wrathful compassion' (perhaps better expressed, when done in the Dharma, as 'wrathful guidance' or 'wrathful correction' for positive reasons.

What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by The Cicada » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:48 pm
What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
Just look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:48 pm
What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
Just look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."

If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by The Cicada » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:48 pm
What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
Just look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."

If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Exactly. Easier said (or written) than done.

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Malcolm
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 am

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm

Just look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."

If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Exactly. Easier said (or written) than done.
It is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:08 am

The Cicada wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm
How many of us can love like a "saint?"

If anyone could, it would have to be Simone.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by The Cicada » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 am
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pm


If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."

If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Exactly. Easier said (or written) than done.
It is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.
When we talk about "compassion," "saintly love," "jihi" or metta and karuna, karuna means acting on that feeling. Doing this wisely and in the face of ingratitude, mistrust, or general misunderstanding is difficult.

Personally, even when I "loan" someone money, I never expect to see it again. Even then, the act wasn't completely "selfless." It rarely is for most of us. Dig into any act of "compassion" in our world and you'll find a cynical motive to some extent—and that's okay. We don't know how to be perfectly compassionate like Lord Buddha.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 am
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pm


If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."

If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Exactly. Easier said (or written) than done.
It is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.
I'm really enjoying practicing the brahmaviharas.

I feel that my energies are in harmony. is very pleasurable.

and I still practice little, only a few times a week.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:11 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:08 am
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm
How many of us can love like a "saint?"

If anyone could, it would have to be Simone.
Thus speaks the self appointed "con·science of Buddhist message boards".
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:34 pm
My definition would be to place the emphasis on long-term good. Rather than on social emollients. :smile:

Most of the complaints I see about unkindness on Buddhist forums are actually meta-discussion about styles of address. And some of those that make the complaints are often those still circling the runway a year, two years, or three years down the line...still vewwy cwoss.

I cant imagine how they would fare if in the company of some of the Dharma teachers I have met.

Me ( some years ago ) 'I am finding it hard Rinpoche. I am exhausted and unwell. My life is shit'

Chime Rinpoche " DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HARD! YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT HARD! I WATCHED PEOPLE DYING OF COLD AND HUNGER! ( he was one of a party that escaped across the Himalayas in winter) GROW UP!


That was kindness. Thank you Rinpoche... :namaste:
I've been reflecting on this, and on similar admonitions I've been given that were not so easy to hear at the time but were excellent medicine. One is the flip side of the coin from your story, Simon: when I was a young man, maybe 21, I sat for a session at a local Zen center. The teacher there opened the floor for questions. I asked mine. The teacher gave specific and direct advice for me to relax, lighten up, lay off the coffee, and eat some ice cream--and only then to resume seated meditation. It was as though this teacher had just looked right through me, sized me up, had a laugh, and set my bearings for me to the next way-station... when what I thought I needed to hear was practice harder! harder! harder!

What was extraordinary about this exchange is that her kindness was articulated in a manner that wasn't polite or impolite, politic or impolitic, or really anything but matter-of-fact: it was presented in a way that I could accept it at a gut level. I never saw her again. Maybe I didn't need to? The ice cream that afternoon was vanilla with blackberry sauce, and it was a joy.

This was among the first of many such exchanges I've had with teachers in a few Buddhist traditions. I think it's a characteristic of the teacher-student relationship we've been discussing in a separate thread.

I'm not capable of offering this kind of kindness. I'm not a teacher of anyone in the Dharma sphere. I'm also not yet convinced that such kindness is possible over an internet forum. That's OK, because as we are all reminded, this is a place for dialogue and sharing of resources, not for instruction.

I think your most important point is that kindness ought not to be conflated with politeness or an insistence on sugarcoating, which are different functions. I brought up all this other stuff to underscore the flip side of that coin: we need to continually refine our discourse with peers that can communicate kindness in a way that is not only correct, but effective in reaching the target. I think my posts show that I am not often capable of this either, but I do make some effort at it, as I trust we all do.

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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by boda » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:53 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
when I was a young man, maybe 21, I sat for a session at a local Zen center. The teacher there opened the floor for questions. I asked mine. The teacher gave specific and direct advice for me to relax, lighten up, lay off the coffee, and eat some ice cream--and only then to resume seated meditation. It was as though this teacher had just looked right through me, sized me up, had a laugh, and set my bearings for me to the next way-station... when what I thought I needed to hear was practice harder! harder! harder!
Good advice to relax. Terrible advice to suggest ice cream, as it undermines the advice to relax by throwing blood sugar balance out of wack with the high sugar dose. I’m sure she meant well though.

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