Unkindness at dharmawheel
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Aye.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:04 pmThis is a great story lol...definitely a keeper.Simon E. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 amThe OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.
A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
On the op:
I think there is plenty of kindness on DW, IMO most of the issues of 'unkindness' here have to do with the dynamics of online communication and communities, and maybe an little bit of "Get Off my Lawn" occasionally.
It is interesting though, in many ways online people are a blank slate..sometimes I think the narratives we have about people online are mostly about us.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Reminds me of the story where a scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. In the story, the frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies "I can't help it, it's my nature."Simon E. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 amThe OP.
I know little of Zen, but there is a Zen concept which intrigues me. You might like to try googling 'Grandmotherly kindness in Zen'.
A story from Ajahn Chah.
There was once a monkey who discovered the teachings of the Buddha. He was struck by the need to cultivate kindness, So he resolved to put that into action.
He came across an ant with a damaged leg so he put the ant back on it's anthill so that it's sisters could care for it.
Then he came across a small bird that had fallen from it's nest, so he popped it back.
Then he came across a forest pool and saw a fish in it.. Overwhelmed with compassion he pulled the fish out and lodged it between the branches of a tree to keep it from drowning.
Then he went on his way looking for more opportunities to practice kindness.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
I propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Or levels, like Dungeons and Dragons.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
dzogchungpa is a 6th level thief, Astus a 35th level cleric, Malcolm a 246th level assassin, etc.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Welcome to the spiritual materialism games!Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pmI propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
As long as we remember that the Buddhas model of Right Speech includes No Bullshitting. He didn't pull his punches.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pmI propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Well that post was intended entirely tongue in cheek, but you are right, he didn't. Honesty when well -intended is usually a good policy.Simon E. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:49 pmAs long as we remember that the Buddhas model of Right Speech includes No Bullshitting. He didn't pull his punches.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pmI propose a three caregory evaluation system: kindness, right speech, and what I like to call "compassionality" (tm)...to be implemented soon.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm What we really need is a DW kindness rating system, kind of like what they have for chess.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
I wonder if there is sometimes a lazy willingness to treat kindness and compassion as the same thing, and meanings have been obscured and made convenient over time:
.
Modern dictionaries give modern interpretations, but here we may also wonder if those words are equivalents of the original Dharma language of the Buddhas at all, let alone being used properly in English.
If I treat you with 'Kind ness' as 'my kind' then it may be closer to empathy than sympathy. 'Kindness' can also imply treating someone as you would treat your 'kin', not especially better or especially well.
Compassion, feeling 'com passio' may be linked to experiencing a condition 'with suffering' or great emotion, not necessarily about pity or empathy.
Yet we use these words as if we all share a common understanding of what they mean. I'm pretty sure we don't. And that goes without mention of the bitchy and angry rants on forums some people like to pass off as 'wrathful compassion' rather than self-serving viciousness.
We also tweak the words to suit ourselves, so empathy becomes 'miserable compassion' and a slap-down becomes 'wrathful compassion' (perhaps better expressed, when done in the Dharma, as 'wrathful guidance' or 'wrathful correction' for positive reasons.
What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
.
Modern dictionaries give modern interpretations, but here we may also wonder if those words are equivalents of the original Dharma language of the Buddhas at all, let alone being used properly in English.
If I treat you with 'Kind ness' as 'my kind' then it may be closer to empathy than sympathy. 'Kindness' can also imply treating someone as you would treat your 'kin', not especially better or especially well.
Compassion, feeling 'com passio' may be linked to experiencing a condition 'with suffering' or great emotion, not necessarily about pity or empathy.
Yet we use these words as if we all share a common understanding of what they mean. I'm pretty sure we don't. And that goes without mention of the bitchy and angry rants on forums some people like to pass off as 'wrathful compassion' rather than self-serving viciousness.
We also tweak the words to suit ourselves, so empathy becomes 'miserable compassion' and a slap-down becomes 'wrathful compassion' (perhaps better expressed, when done in the Dharma, as 'wrathful guidance' or 'wrathful correction' for positive reasons.
What words are used in Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan, I wonder, which we have interpreted with English words, the meaning of which we barely grasp and rarely share?
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
If you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."The Cicada wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pmJust look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Exactly. Easier said (or written) than done.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pmIf you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."The Cicada wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pmJust look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
It is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.The Cicada wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:01 amExactly. Easier said (or written) than done.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:52 pmIf you have the feeling that you wish another happiness, this is precisely the love of a "saint."The Cicada wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm
Just look at the English word "love." How many of us can love like a "saint?"
If on the other hand, your "love" is principally concerned with desire and grasping, this is just a cause for more samsara.
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
If anyone could, it would have to be Simone.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
When we talk about "compassion," "saintly love," "jihi" or metta and karuna, karuna means acting on that feeling. Doing this wisely and in the face of ingratitude, mistrust, or general misunderstanding is difficult.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 amIt is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.
Personally, even when I "loan" someone money, I never expect to see it again. Even then, the act wasn't completely "selfless." It rarely is for most of us. Dig into any act of "compassion" in our world and you'll find a cynical motive to some extent—and that's okay. We don't know how to be perfectly compassionate like Lord Buddha.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
I'm really enjoying practicing the brahmaviharas.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 amIt is pretty easy to wish to others happiness. It is actually easier than the afflictive stuff. This is the Buddha's point about cultivating the four brahmaviharas.
I feel that my energies are in harmony. is very pleasurable.
and I still practice little, only a few times a week.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Thus speaks the self appointed "con·science of Buddhist message boards".
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
I've been reflecting on this, and on similar admonitions I've been given that were not so easy to hear at the time but were excellent medicine. One is the flip side of the coin from your story, Simon: when I was a young man, maybe 21, I sat for a session at a local Zen center. The teacher there opened the floor for questions. I asked mine. The teacher gave specific and direct advice for me to relax, lighten up, lay off the coffee, and eat some ice cream--and only then to resume seated meditation. It was as though this teacher had just looked right through me, sized me up, had a laugh, and set my bearings for me to the next way-station... when what I thought I needed to hear was practice harder! harder! harder!Simon E. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:34 pm My definition would be to place the emphasis on long-term good. Rather than on social emollients.
Most of the complaints I see about unkindness on Buddhist forums are actually meta-discussion about styles of address. And some of those that make the complaints are often those still circling the runway a year, two years, or three years down the line...still vewwy cwoss.
I cant imagine how they would fare if in the company of some of the Dharma teachers I have met.
Me ( some years ago ) 'I am finding it hard Rinpoche. I am exhausted and unwell. My life is shit'
Chime Rinpoche " DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HARD! YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT HARD! I WATCHED PEOPLE DYING OF COLD AND HUNGER! ( he was one of a party that escaped across the Himalayas in winter) GROW UP!
That was kindness. Thank you Rinpoche...
What was extraordinary about this exchange is that her kindness was articulated in a manner that wasn't polite or impolite, politic or impolitic, or really anything but matter-of-fact: it was presented in a way that I could accept it at a gut level. I never saw her again. Maybe I didn't need to? The ice cream that afternoon was vanilla with blackberry sauce, and it was a joy.
This was among the first of many such exchanges I've had with teachers in a few Buddhist traditions. I think it's a characteristic of the teacher-student relationship we've been discussing in a separate thread.
I'm not capable of offering this kind of kindness. I'm not a teacher of anyone in the Dharma sphere. I'm also not yet convinced that such kindness is possible over an internet forum. That's OK, because as we are all reminded, this is a place for dialogue and sharing of resources, not for instruction.
I think your most important point is that kindness ought not to be conflated with politeness or an insistence on sugarcoating, which are different functions. I brought up all this other stuff to underscore the flip side of that coin: we need to continually refine our discourse with peers that can communicate kindness in a way that is not only correct, but effective in reaching the target. I think my posts show that I am not often capable of this either, but I do make some effort at it, as I trust we all do.
Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel
Good advice to relax. Terrible advice to suggest ice cream, as it undermines the advice to relax by throwing blood sugar balance out of wack with the high sugar dose. I’m sure she meant well though.DGA wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am when I was a young man, maybe 21, I sat for a session at a local Zen center. The teacher there opened the floor for questions. I asked mine. The teacher gave specific and direct advice for me to relax, lighten up, lay off the coffee, and eat some ice cream--and only then to resume seated meditation. It was as though this teacher had just looked right through me, sized me up, had a laugh, and set my bearings for me to the next way-station... when what I thought I needed to hear was practice harder! harder! harder!