Unkindness at dharmawheel

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Simon E.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:57 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:34 pm
My definition would be to place the emphasis on long-term good. Rather than on social emollients. :smile:

Most of the complaints I see about unkindness on Buddhist forums are actually meta-discussion about styles of address. And some of those that make the complaints are often those still circling the runway a year, two years, or three years down the line...still vewwy cwoss.

I cant imagine how they would fare if in the company of some of the Dharma teachers I have met.

Me ( some years ago ) 'I am finding it hard Rinpoche. I am exhausted and unwell. My life is shit'

Chime Rinpoche " DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HARD! YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE ABOUT HARD! I WATCHED PEOPLE DYING OF COLD AND HUNGER! ( he was one of a party that escaped across the Himalayas in winter) GROW UP!


That was kindness. Thank you Rinpoche... :namaste:
I've been reflecting on this, and on similar admonitions I've been given that were not so easy to hear at the time but were excellent medicine. One is the flip side of the coin from your story, Simon: when I was a young man, maybe 21, I sat for a session at a local Zen center. The teacher there opened the floor for questions. I asked mine. The teacher gave specific and direct advice for me to relax, lighten up, lay off the coffee, and eat some ice cream--and only then to resume seated meditation. It was as though this teacher had just looked right through me, sized me up, had a laugh, and set my bearings for me to the next way-station... when what I thought I needed to hear was practice harder! harder! harder!

What was extraordinary about this exchange is that her kindness was articulated in a manner that wasn't polite or impolite, politic or impolitic, or really anything but matter-of-fact: it was presented in a way that I could accept it at a gut level. I never saw her again. Maybe I didn't need to? The ice cream that afternoon was vanilla with blackberry sauce, and it was a joy.

This was among the first of many such exchanges I've had with teachers in a few Buddhist traditions. I think it's a characteristic of the teacher-student relationship we've been discussing in a separate thread.

I'm not capable of offering this kind of kindness. I'm not a teacher of anyone in the Dharma sphere. I'm also not yet convinced that such kindness is possible over an internet forum. That's OK, because as we are all reminded, this is a place for dialogue and sharing of resources, not for instruction.

I think your most important point is that kindness ought not to be conflated with politeness or an insistence on sugarcoating, which are different functions. I brought up all this other stuff to underscore the flip side of that coin: we need to continually refine our discourse with peers that can communicate kindness in a way that is not only correct, but effective in reaching the target. I think my posts show that I am not often capable of this either, but I do make some effort at it, as I trust we all do.
Thanks for your characteristically reflective reply DGA.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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weitsicht
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by weitsicht » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:50 am

Thanks very much for this Exchange here. :thanks:

I read an old Newsletter by Ani Tenzin Palmö yesterday while commuting. And I understood dana is much more that just the materialistic aspect of giving.
Being conscious of others is also giving.
I like that one http://tenzinpalmo.com/gatsal/GatsalTea ... nglish.pdf and thought I should share / remind
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
I think your most important point is that kindness ought not to be conflated with politeness or an insistence on sugarcoating, which are different functions. I brought up all this other stuff to underscore the flip side of that coin: we need to continually refine our discourse with peers that can communicate kindness in a way that is not only correct, but effective in reaching the target. I think my posts show that I am not often capable of this either, but I do make some effort at it, as I trust we all do.
Indeed, I am also against mistaking sugarcoating for kindness!

It's all the waves up and down of samsara

Correctness does not exist. There is no right and wrong. Don't be too harsh to yourself or others.
If any of us feels provocated: just let drop.
Just have ice cream and go on.
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
I'm not capable of offering this kind of kindness. I'm not a teacher of anyone in the Dharma sphere. I'm also not yet convinced that such kindness is possible over an internet forum. That's OK, because as we are all reminded, this is a place for dialogue and sharing of resources, not for instruction.
DGA, please have more trust in yourself.
We all are each others' teachers.
You have the same potential to the open awareness as any of the teachers you had met and admired -and hence the same potential of compassion and of spontanely knowing what should be applied.
Big hug! W :hug:
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

odysseus
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by odysseus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:37 pm

Be kind. There is always the possibility to be kind.

This was something like the Dalai Lama said.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:55 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:50 am
There is no right and wrong.
Then there's no point in being kind at all.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

DGA
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by DGA » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:17 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:50 am
Thanks very much for this Exchange here. :thanks:

I read an old Newsletter by Ani Tenzin Palmö yesterday while commuting. And I understood dana is much more that just the materialistic aspect of giving.
Being conscious of others is also giving.
I like that one http://tenzinpalmo.com/gatsal/GatsalTea ... nglish.pdf and thought I should share / remind
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
I think your most important point is that kindness ought not to be conflated with politeness or an insistence on sugarcoating, which are different functions. I brought up all this other stuff to underscore the flip side of that coin: we need to continually refine our discourse with peers that can communicate kindness in a way that is not only correct, but effective in reaching the target. I think my posts show that I am not often capable of this either, but I do make some effort at it, as I trust we all do.
Indeed, I am also against mistaking sugarcoating for kindness!

It's all the waves up and down of samsara

Correctness does not exist. There is no right and wrong. Don't be too harsh to yourself or others.
If any of us feels provocated: just let drop.
Just have ice cream and go on.
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
I'm not capable of offering this kind of kindness. I'm not a teacher of anyone in the Dharma sphere. I'm also not yet convinced that such kindness is possible over an internet forum. That's OK, because as we are all reminded, this is a place for dialogue and sharing of resources, not for instruction.
DGA, please have more trust in yourself.
We all are each others' teachers.
You have the same potential to the open awareness as any of the teachers you had met and admired -and hence the same potential of compassion and of spontanely knowing what should be applied.
Big hug! W :hug:
Thank you for the kind words.

Trust me, I'm fine and I'm not lacking in self-confidence.

The truth is that we are NOT each other's teachers. We can be friends and supporters, but the kinds of relationships we cultivate online are different in quality and kind from the relationship of a disciple to student.

I am not a Dharma teacher. I do not have a Dharma teaching role. I am not so stupid as to proclaim myself as one on my own, Eckhardt Tolle-style.

odysseus
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by odysseus » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:33 am

Don´ t worry about the Buddhists. Everybody knows that E-sangha and Dharma-hell have a heart made of stone. It's still interesting from a scientific point of view, to analyse the psyche of the members like people like to do here.

All in good humour, folks? :namaste:

amanitamusc
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:33 am

odysseus wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:33 am
Don´ t worry about the Buddhists. Everybody knows that E-sangha and Dharma-hell have a heart made of stone. It's still interesting from a scientific point of view, to analyse the psyche of the members like people like to do here.

All in good humour, folks? :namaste:
What humor?

odysseus
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by odysseus » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:33 am
What humor?
Have you heard about the cannibal who crapped out his neighbour?

amanitamusc
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:52 am

odysseus wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:33 am
What humor?
Have you heard about the cannibal who crapped out his neighbour?
I get it,obtuse humor.

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Grigoris
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:45 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:52 am
odysseus wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:33 am
What humor?
Have you heard about the cannibal who crapped out his neighbour?
I get it,obtuse humor.
He can't help it, he's Norwegian! :P Wait 'til you meet someone from Finland!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:55 am

My chiropodist is from Finland.
I said, 'will you all carouse like Vikings and drink mead at Christmas?'

He replied 'We are nothing like Vikings, we don't have horns on our helmets'.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Grigoris
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:38 am

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:55 am
My chiropodist is from Finland.
I said, 'will you all carouse like Vikings and drink mead at Christmas?'

He replied 'We are nothing like Vikings, we don't have horns on our helmets'.
The only thing they share in common with Vikings is a love of salted fish! :)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:41 am

But really: Norwegians and Finns are wonderful people. I spent a month in Bergen some time ago and loved it. In my moonlighting work as bar man I would work in hotels with Norwegians and Finns and they were always really nice to me.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:07 am

My chiropractor ( which is what he actually is, not a chiropodist :roll: senior moment there) and his family are going to the family cabin in Lapland for 'a real Christmas'!

Seems a bit too real to me... :smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

veggiepeace
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by veggiepeace » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:15 pm

joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:24 pm
Is there any?

If so, why?

Hello,
I am just an irregular guest here, I drop in every now and then when I have a question or
think that I can contribute something or even vent a little bit of "anger".
Most of the time I have not been connected to this forum, but whenever I read some of the
articles that attract my interest, I find some valuable thoughts and information and I like the overall
generous and mindful atmosphere.
account expired - wrong address - void space - user cancelled - posted on wrong platform - posted by mistake - farewell

veggiepeace
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by veggiepeace » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:42 pm

joy&peace wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:25 pm
Should not all members be treated with respect?

The contributions we make - all make - are valuable.
Just my 5 cents :thinking: :-) :
Apart from the few, usual bullys that we can find all over in the internet there seems
to be respect in this forum, in conversations amoung forists who have been discussing with each other
and even some sympathy and most of the time focus on content rather than on personal attacks.

There are exemptions though - very few people that really show bad, hostile and provocing demeanour -
which would probably have been sanctioned in other forums, but as this is a "buddhist" environment,
such harmful attitudes seem to be "tolerated" which means tacit consent for bullys.

How to deal with "unkindness" in general and in particular situations?

Unkindness can happen to everyone, no one is always kind or capable to show "kind behavior".

Therefore I would distinguish between "unkindness" that's not intentional and unconsciously acted out and "unkindness" that
indulges in harming or hurting others.

It can happen that my (our) words might hurt or "trigger" others without my (our) intention or conscious awareness.
The problem is when people do not work on their harmful behavior and attititude, as they might consequently
be caught in a vicious cycle then and do not understand the reason why.

That's why it could even be helpful to alert people when they show aggressive or abusive behaviour towards others, because it offers
them (the "unkind" person) a chance to learn from their actions. It might be benefical for themselves as well as for their targets.
Please correct me when you think that I am wrong here.

"Unkindness" is not a problem for me! and of course it always depends on the context, but personally I myself for sure contempt bullys and avoid them
as good as I can.
account expired - wrong address - void space - user cancelled - posted on wrong platform - posted by mistake - farewell

veggiepeace
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by veggiepeace » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:34 pm

...okay, maybe "bully" is not
the correct word here, but I could not think of anything else.

What I see is, that in conversations in "real life" it's more about the personal "interaction"
and online it's more subject to projection and visible acting out of one's "thoughts"
or the feelings behind thoughts.

It still has a mutual element on the interface or surface, but it's more prone to misinterpretations,
misunderstandings and/or anonymous acting out on "innocent" targets.

Therefore in such a forum even more mindfulness would be necessary than in
"live" conversations.
account expired - wrong address - void space - user cancelled - posted on wrong platform - posted by mistake - farewell

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Malcolm
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:39 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:17 pm
The truth is that we are NOT each other's teachers.
Indeed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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weitsicht
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by weitsicht » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:23 pm

I think this forum is very well tended. So besides the self-discipline of all participants, I expressedly would like to thank all moderators for their good job and wish you nice festivities.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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weitsicht
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Re: Unkindness at dharmawheel

Post by weitsicht » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:39 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:17 pm
The truth is that we are NOT each other's teachers.
Indeed.
No-one can bring back jewels from a treasure island without relying on an experienced navigator. Likewise, a spiritual friend is our true guide to liberation and omniscience, and we must follow him with respect
Patrul Rinpoche
So who is this spiritual friend? How do you identify him being so sure he is not in this forum?
A Root Teacher is the teacher who has introduced you to the nature of the mind. If you don't think you'll find him on the internet, why wasting the time?

Again, this is a dzogchen perspective. If you follow another yana, then please just ignore what I type.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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