ChNN on Jesus?

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climb-up
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ChNN on Jesus?

Post by climb-up » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:56 am

Hello,

We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen.
I have seen two places where ChNN compares the Virgin Mary with Tara, and passingly compares saints and Yidams.
Has he ever given his opinion of Jesus and where he might fit in the dzogchen schema? ( so Tara (more or less) equals Mary, and Jesus (more or less) equals _________?)

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:05 pm

http://melong.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ror77c.pdf

I have never hear Rinpoche say Jesus equals anybody or anything in Buddhism.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

climb-up
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by climb-up » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:38 pm

Ah, nice one!
Thank you for that. :smile:

odysseus
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by odysseus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:38 pm

I don't even know who ChNN is. But Christ could be a bodhisattva. His teachings were pure, but he has been misrepresented over 2000 years, just like sometimes Buddha also is misrepresented.

Tiago Simões
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:43 pm

climb-up wrote:Hello,

We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen.
I have seen two places where ChNN compares the Virgin Mary with Tara, and passingly compares saints and Yidams.
Has he ever given his opinion of Jesus and where he might fit in the dzogchen schema? ( so Tara (more or less) equals Mary, and Jesus (more or less) equals _________?)
I remember Malcolm saying Jesus was just a dude, that might be ChNNs view as well.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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aflatun
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by aflatun » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:07 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:http://melong.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ror77c.pdf

I have never hear Rinpoche say Jesus equals anybody or anything in Buddhism.
What is your attitude towards Jesus Christ?
I don’t know what my attitude is, but I consider him an enlightened being.
:o
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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dzogchungpa
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:55 pm

odysseus wrote:I don't even know who ChNN is.
:jawdrop:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

muni
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by muni » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:19 pm

Ask Rinpoche? :smile:

Maybe Gyalwa Rinpoche, H H Dalai Lama: “ do not compare me with Jesus, since he is a great master”.
This attitude seems to be a teaching, somehow. Or I am wrong?
The nature of just what is, in all things, is undifferentiated.
When purified, it is the nature of the tathagata.
Therefore all living beings possess that nucleus.

The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

odysseus
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by odysseus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:30 pm

muni wrote:
Maybe Gyalwa Rinpoche, H H Dalai Lama: “ do not compare me with Jesus, since he is a great master”.
This attitude seems to be a teaching, somehow. Or I am wrong?
He really said that? Maybe to calm some people down and bring them back into reality. To compare Dalai Lama with Christ must be a very hopeful and deluded attitude.

muni
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by muni » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:37 pm

odysseus wrote:
muni wrote:
Maybe Gyalwa Rinpoche, H H Dalai Lama: “ do not compare me with Jesus, since he is a great master”.
This attitude seems to be a teaching, somehow. Or I am wrong?
He really said that? Maybe to calm some people down and bring them back into reality. To compare Dalai Lama with Christ must be a very hopeful and deluded attitude.
No idea, but it is his attitude/teaching behavior. Not the deluded one, and not comparision actually.
As one of His Masters Dilgo khyentse 's advice: be the lowest among all. Maybe therefore a teaching example?
What is your attitude towards Jesus Christ?
I don’t know what my attitude is, but I consider him an enlightened being.
This is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche?
Well, then no need to ask anymore. :namaste:
The nature of just what is, in all things, is undifferentiated.
When purified, it is the nature of the tathagata.
Therefore all living beings possess that nucleus.

The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

odysseus
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by odysseus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
odysseus wrote:I don't even know who ChNN is.
:jawdrop:
*shock and awe*

I get by with my own local Lama. Is ChNN great in America?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:04 pm

odysseus wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
odysseus wrote:I don't even know who ChNN is.
:jawdrop:
*shock and awe*

I get by with my own local Lama. Is ChNN great in America?
He's kind of a big deal.



Anyway, in "The Golden Letters" in the section "The Historical Existence of Garab Dorje" Reynolds remarks:
There exists an interesting parallel to the legend of Garab Dorje, as translated above, in the legend of Sophia in the life of Jesus Christ, that is to say, the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, the confounding of the elders in the temple with his precocious learning while yet a child, the performing of various miracles, the final resurrection and ascension to heaven, and so on. Jesus is called Christ and the Son of God; Garab Dorje is called the Nirmanakaya and the emanation (Skt. nirmita) of Vajrasattva. There exist many interesting parallels and historical connections between Gnosticism and Mahayana Buddhism, particularly Dzogchen, and I have dealt with these questions elsewhere. But it is not necessary to postulate direct historical influences either way, for the historical figures Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth and Dzogchen master Garab Dorje of Uddiyana both participate in the same transhistorical archetype.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

climb-up
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by climb-up » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:19 pm

I wasn't really sure how this thread would go, but this is great.
Thank you all for the thoughts, quotes and insights.
odysseus wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
odysseus wrote:I don't even know who ChNN is.
:jawdrop:
*shock and awe*

I get by with my own local Lama. Is ChNN great in America?
ChNN = Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Strive
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Strive » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:26 pm

Jesus is a high level bodhisattva but not buddha.

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Losal Samten
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Losal Samten » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:33 pm

Kongtrul:
  • For the benefit of ordinary persons who harbor conceptual partiality toward specific schools of spiritual philosophy, such as theist or nontheist, Buddhist or Bön, the buddhas’ compassion is impartial and immeasurable. For example, [buddhas] manifest to guide theists as gods with forms and attributes that correspond to their religions. In fact, in the three worlds, the victors’ enlightened activity is present in even the most minor form of virtuous spiritual paths.
Still, this does not mean that tirthika dharma is liberative in any way, merely that the compassion of buddhas to relieve beings of their suffering extends to everyone, whether they're fit for buddhadharma or not.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Grigoris
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:31 pm

odysseus wrote:
muni wrote:
Maybe Gyalwa Rinpoche, H H Dalai Lama: “ do not compare me with Jesus, since he is a great master”.
This attitude seems to be a teaching, somehow. Or I am wrong?
He really said that? Maybe to calm some people down and bring them back into reality. To compare Dalai Lama with Christ must be a very hopeful and deluded attitude.
A second ago you said that Jesus was an enlightened being and now you have a problem with comparing him to HHDL. I guess you do not consider HHDL an enlightened being?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:51 pm

Strive wrote:Jesus is a high level bodhisattva but not buddha.
Some type of deified ghost ( a god) seems more likely.

climb-up
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by climb-up » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:17 am

[quote="Losal Samten"]Kongtrul:
  • For the benefit of ordinary persons who harbor conceptual partiality toward specific schools of spiritual philosophy, such as theist or nontheist, Buddhist or Bön, the buddhas’ compassion is impartial and immeasurable. For example, [buddhas] manifest to guide theists as gods with forms and attributes that correspond to their religions. In fact, in the three worlds, the victors’ enlightened activity is present in even the most minor form of virtuous spiritual paths.
Beautiful, thank you for sharing.
This aligns very much with my UPG (up verified personal gnosis) understandings on the subject.

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:24 am

climb-up wrote: We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen.
I have seen two places where ChNN compares the Virgin Mary with Tara, and passingly compares saints and Yidams.
Has he ever given his opinion of Jesus and where he might fit in the dzogchen schema? ( so Tara (more or less) equals Mary, and Jesus (more or less) equals _________?)
If you're going to draw parallels:
Jesus = Nirmanakaya (physically present)
Angels = Sambogakaya (communication between physical and ultimate)
God(head) = Dharmakaya (in a Meister Eckhart kinda way).
We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen...
btw there's an amusing book by a Catholic theologian that accidentally stumbled on something like Mahamudra in the late 1920s or early 1930s by accident. It totally freaked him out. Since he was an avid monotheist he could not reconcile his experience with the God/fallen man dualism. His experience was so incompatible with the church doctrine he was teaching at the Vatican that he left the Church.

He does not say his experience was Mahamudra, Dzogchen, or any such thing. That long ago nobody knew about those practices. He had no idea what happened to him. But when I read his book the description sounded a whole lot like nature of mind experience. He was even sky gazing when it happened, although it was at night. I'll say his experience falls towards the Mahamudra end of the spectrum because he partly credits his trained powers of concentration for the experience. Sounds more like Mahamudra to me.

I just found it amusing how perplexed he was because of his "wrong view".

For those of you interested his book is called "I Was a Monk" by John Tettemer. You can skip the first 200 pages. That's just a straight up late 19th century American priest's autobiography. It doesn't get funny until he gets sick and has way too much time on his hands while he recuperates and let's his mind go where it wants.
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climb-up
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by climb-up » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:02 am

smcj wrote:
climb-up wrote: We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen.
I have seen two places where ChNN compares the Virgin Mary with Tara, and passingly compares saints and Yidams.
Has he ever given his opinion of Jesus and where he might fit in the dzogchen schema? ( so Tara (more or less) equals Mary, and Jesus (more or less) equals _________?)
If you're going to draw parallels:
Jesus = Nirmanakaya (physically present)
Angels = Sambogakaya (communication between physical and ultimate)
God(head) = Dharmakaya (in a Meister Eckhart kinda way).
We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen...
btw there's an amusing book by a Catholic theologian that accidentally stumbled on something like Mahamudra in the late 1920s or early 1930s by accident. It totally freaked him out. Since he was an avid monotheist he could not reconcile his experience with the God/fallen man dualism. His experience was so incompatible with the church doctrine he was teaching at the Vatican that he left the Church.

He does not say his experience was Mahamudra, Dzogchen, or any such thing. That long ago nobody knew about those practices. He had no idea what happened to him. But when I read his book the description sounded a whole lot like nature of mind experience. He was even sky gazing when it happened, although it was at night. I'll say his experience falls towards the Mahamudra end of the spectrum because he partly credits his trained powers of concentration for the experience. Sounds more like Mahamudra to me.

I just found it amusing how perplexed he was because of his "wrong view".

For those of you interested his book is called "I Was a Monk" by John Tettemer. You can skip the first 200 pages. That's just a straight up late 19th century American priest's autobiography. It doesn't get funny until he gets sick and has way too much time on his hands while he recuperates and let's his mind go where it wants.
Those parallels seem good to me.
In this schema would saints be Sambogakaya forms? They lived physical lives (..."allegedly" at least for some) but make appear non-physically and also communicate from physical to ultimate (like angels, who communicate more rom ultimate to physical generally).

I'll check the book out, that sounds fascinating.
The Christian contemplative tradition has some amazing stuff. It's not an area I'm super familiar with, but everytime I dip into "The Cloud of Unknowing" and "Book of Privy Counseling" I am very impressed.

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