ChNN on Jesus?

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Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Ok, dude. I won't presume. I will take your word that he didn't get any Dzogchen. Merely being in the presence of a great master for someone receptive, would not count as a Dzogchen teaching?

Nope, this isn't Hinduism and we don't do shaktipat or darshans.

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Dan74
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Ok, dude. I won't presume. I will take your word that he didn't get any Dzogchen. Merely being in the presence of a great master for someone receptive, would not count as a Dzogchen teaching?

Nope, this isn't Hinduism and we don't do shaktipat or darshans.
OK. Thank you for replying.

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:44 am

Nope, this isn't Hinduism and we don't do shaktipat or darshans.
Back in the day Ole Nydahl's stories about HHK 16 sure sounded a lot like shaktipat. Him, plus one other HHK 16 student that I knew.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Lhasa
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Lhasa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, this isn't Hinduism and we don't do shaktipat or darshans.
Oh Thank God !!! ...wait.... :oops:

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:26 am

Malcolm wrote:

Confucius also taught many wonderful things that might have led to a lessening of vexation and a cultivation of the perfections — but I don't see many people piling on to claim that Confucius was an "enlightened being." We can say the same thing about Marcus Aurelius and so on.
It seems like folks didn't see this important point of Malcolm? Why so much insistence about Christ being enlightened?

Esp given that no Buddhist masters have unequivocally endorsed Bible or Christ himself. Given that the history of buddhism starting from buddha himself is to refute other non dharmic teachings and teachers. Even shankaracarya or many other Indian teachers who had such clear system and rigorous training are denied any status of refugable beings let alone Christ whose vague, metaphorical words we are trying to interpret after studying buddhism.

Which 'enlightened' Christian teacher are we now going to listen to instead of vajradharas like ChNN? Even if there were Christian teachers claiming themselves to have been enlightened or who were talking similar things would they be totally reliable objects of Refuge?

But back to Malcolm's clear point from the quote: why not Confucius?

Arguing Christ is enlightened is like Hindus arguing shiva or ramana are enlightened. And we Buddhists clearly reject given their teachings are so much clearer than unclear teachings of a figure whose history is full of confusion, after whose death monstrous religion came to being, who was born out of jambudipa, who was never endorsed by any historical Buddhist teachers, whose practice we don't know shit about (mind you shakyamuni practice of many lives are available to us), who never talks about basic Buddhist ideas of relative samsara like six realms and such, who talks about creator, etc.

As in the earlier posts of friends here, people in other religions too try to compare absolute truths as stated in buddhism with their own notions which to me seems like a little easier to see similar as primarily because non Buddhists don't understand even conceptually what these absolute truths as stated in buddhism are. And it is perhaps easier to cast a metaphorical twist on these lofty words. Please don't forget to compare relative truths too which all Buddhist traditions and teachers talk about. Where does Jesus talk about and when has his followers ever talked about six realms, about other mundane right view?

TO claim Christ as enlightened is to cast him as someone worthy of going to Refuge. So to make such big claims requires extensive justifications. The first thing about Refuge is you refuse and reject other non Buddhist traditions and teachings completely as source of liberation. That is basic buddhism. To argue otherwise from my understanding is to have feeble faith in buddha. When a cause and condition arises it allows possibility and even encourages one to take Refuge in other beings and thus be further from liberation.

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:32 am

Malcolm wrote: The living tradition of what? Another mistaken path in Samsara?

In ChNN's game of liberation, landing in the Christian Heaven sends you right back to the deva realm, asura realm, or into the human realm, where, if you are lucky, you have to pick up a Buddhist path based on achieving the precious human birth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments if you want achieve liberation. This illustrates ChNN's actual take on Christianity — i.e. it does not lead out of Samsara.
Basic buddha dharma, guys. Thanks Malcolm! My understanding was from the heaven you could drop down to even lower realms right? It's not like Christian heaven is a rupa brahma Loka for sure.

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:46 am

smcj wrote:There are a few people here that have deep antipathy for Christianity. There are plenty of reasons to do so: conflict with science, history of the Church, a theology that has irreconcilable problems, emphasis on rewards only after death, etc. So yes, it is understood by all here that Christianity, and by association all 'religion', has left bad taste in people's mouths.

And so we come here with huge preconditions, that Dharma not have any of the elements that we find offensive in Christianity. So we downplay or dismiss any religiosity in our approach and understanding of Dharma. Deities, hell realms, faith and the like are either discounted or sidestepped. If someone is adamant about practicing Dharma and keeping all their attachments to their anti-religious attitudes intact, it is likely that they will end up at Dzogchen without a Vajrayana context.

But then, surprise!, Tibetans don't have a fundamentally anti-religious attitude. To them religion is extremely workable. So someone like ChNN can say things like, "We have lots of deities. We just don't have one main one." and "Jesus was an enlightened being" without any qualms at all. We can see ChNN as the ultimate refuge of the anti-religious, and here not only is he being pro-religious, but he isn't even willing to support our anti-Christianity.

Kinda funny if you're not anti-religious.
Given the discussion in this thread the folks you are referring to as having anti Christianity are precisely the people who perhaps have very strong faith and even actual experience in the religious notions of buddha dharma. Based on these notions it is foolish to argue Christ was enlightened! Find a quote of Jesus where he talks about mundane right view.

And it's not just Tibetans buddha dharma always have had religious elements. Only the absolute truth is referred to as something beyond any belief. Even then we have conceptual ways to clarify that. Modern vipassana is more appealing to folks with anti religiosity as Malcom said.

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Dan74
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:06 am

I can't speak for smcj, but for me this isn't about "going to Jesus for refuge." It's about respect for a remarkable spiritual figure and also about skilful means - use whatever helps you unseat bad habits and delusion.

Early on in Dharma practice it can be useful to forcefully reject every other path, to focus 100% on the one you picked. Then, once faith has taken root, I think it can be useful sometimes to delve into other teachings. Not to say 'necessary'. Whatever works.

We all suffer from blinkered narrow views and hubris. But we also know that the heart/mind does not open to the essence with such an approach. At some point, the right point, all this needs to be shed. Hopefully, our precious teachers will encourage us to do that, and that we heed their advice.


_/|\_

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:25 am

Dan74 wrote:I can't speak for smcj, but for me this isn't about "going to Jesus for refuge." It's about respect for a remarkable spiritual figure and also about skilful means - use whatever helps you unseat bad habits and delusion.

Early on in Dharma practice it can be useful to forcefully reject every other path, to focus 100% on the one you picked. Then, once faith has taken root, I think it can be useful sometimes to delve into other teachings. Not to say 'necessary'. Whatever works.

We all suffer from blinkered narrow views and hubris. But we also know that the heart/mind does not open to the essence with such an approach. At some point, the right point, all this needs to be shed. Hopefully, our precious teachers will encourage us to do that, and that we heed their advice.


_/|\_

I don't have much to disagree on with these points. I don't go to non Buddhist teachers however remarkable their portrayed personality and life for Refuge but I like many things about their teachings.

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:23 pm

Dan74 wrote:I can't speak for smcj, but for me this isn't about "going to Jesus for refuge." It's about respect for a remarkable spiritual figure and also about skilful means - use whatever helps you unseat bad habits and delusion.

Early on in Dharma practice it can be useful to forcefully reject every other path, to focus 100% on the one you picked. Then, once faith has taken root, I think it can be useful sometimes to delve into other teachings. Not to say 'necessary'. Whatever works.

We all suffer from blinkered narrow views and hubris. But we also know that the heart/mind does not open to the essence with such an approach. At some point, the right point, all this needs to be shed. Hopefully, our precious teachers will encourage us to do that, and that we heed their advice.


_/|\_
The only thing one needs is right view. The rest follows from there. Realization follows the view, not meditation. This critical point is not well understood by many Western Buddhists.

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:41 pm

Jyotish wrote:
Malcolm wrote: The living tradition of what? Another mistaken path in Samsara?

In ChNN's game of liberation, landing in the Christian Heaven sends you right back to the deva realm, asura realm, or into the human realm, where, if you are lucky, you have to pick up a Buddhist path based on achieving the precious human birth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments if you want achieve liberation. This illustrates ChNN's actual take on Christianity — i.e. it does not lead out of Samsara.
Basic buddha dharma, guys. Thanks Malcolm! My understanding was from the heaven you could drop down to even lower realms right? It's not like Christian heaven is a rupa brahma Loka for sure.
In CNN's game of liberation, from Christian Heaven you go to deva, asura, or human realm, from there you can go anywhere.

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jyotish wrote:
Malcolm wrote: The living tradition of what? Another mistaken path in Samsara?

In ChNN's game of liberation, landing in the Christian Heaven sends you right back to the deva realm, asura realm, or into the human realm, where, if you are lucky, you have to pick up a Buddhist path based on achieving the precious human birth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments if you want achieve liberation. This illustrates ChNN's actual take on Christianity — i.e. it does not lead out of Samsara.
Basic buddha dharma, guys. Thanks Malcolm! My understanding was from the heaven you could drop down to even lower realms right? It's not like Christian heaven is a rupa brahma Loka for sure.
In CNN's game of liberation, from Christian Heaven you go to deva, asura, or human realm, from there you can go anywhere.
Does that imply he considers Christian heaven a rupa dhatu? It is only with rupa dhatu that gods there don't fall to durgati isn't it?

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:05 pm

The only thing one needs is right view. The rest follows from there. Realization follows the view, not meditation. This critical point is not well understood by many Western Buddhists
I know of several Karma Kagyu teachers who teach here in the West who take the "no philosophizing" approach. Basically they say, "Don't ask questions, don't read about philosophy. Just do the practices. Doing the practices is the only thing that is going to make you enlightened. Once you are enlightened either your questions will be answered or or else you'll see that the question was invalid. Then YOU can write the books that others will study."

Remarkably, even though the Karma Kagyu school has held the Shentong view since Karmapa III, most western 3 year retreat graduates have never even heard about it, much less understand it.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Reposting from page 1 of this thread. No citation was given.
Losal Samten wrote: Kongtrul:
  • For the benefit of ordinary persons who harbor conceptual partiality toward specific schools of spiritual philosophy, such as theist or nontheist, Buddhist or Bön, the buddhas’ compassion is impartial and immeasurable. For example, [buddhas] manifest to guide theists as gods with forms and attributes that correspond to their religions. In fact, in the three worlds, the victors’ enlightened activity is present in even the most minor form of virtuous spiritual paths.
I assume Kontrul is elaborating on the last chapter of "The Uttaratantra" which is titled "Buddha Activity".
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:21 pm

From the OP.
climb-up wrote:We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen
Is this a widely known position of ChNN? Is it being disputed here?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Losal Samten
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:23 pm

smcj wrote:I assume Kontrul is elaborating on the last chapter of "The Uttaratantra" which is titled "Buddha Activity".
He's explaining why he added Bonpo termas to his terdzo. Again, the quotation doesn't mean tirthika paths are liberative.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:26 pm

smcj wrote:Reposting from page 1 of this thread. No citation was given.
Losal Samten wrote: Kongtrul:
  • For the benefit of ordinary persons who harbor conceptual partiality toward specific schools of spiritual philosophy, such as theist or nontheist, Buddhist or Bön, the buddhas’ compassion is impartial and immeasurable. For example, [buddhas] manifest to guide theists as gods with forms and attributes that correspond to their religions. In fact, in the three worlds, the victors’ enlightened activity is present in even the most minor form of virtuous spiritual paths.
I assume Kontrul is elaborating on the last chapter of "The Uttaratantra" which is titled "Buddha Activity".
Apparently he was attempting to justify his inclusion of Bon material in the Rinchen Terdzo, see:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_4hRmNwuY-UC&pg=PA189

Ah, I see LS beat me to it, anyway you can see the passage at that link.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Dan74
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I can't speak for smcj, but for me this isn't about "going to Jesus for refuge." It's about respect for a remarkable spiritual figure and also about skilful means - use whatever helps you unseat bad habits and delusion.

Early on in Dharma practice it can be useful to forcefully reject every other path, to focus 100% on the one you picked. Then, once faith has taken root, I think it can be useful sometimes to delve into other teachings. Not to say 'necessary'. Whatever works.

We all suffer from blinkered narrow views and hubris. But we also know that the heart/mind does not open to the essence with such an approach. At some point, the right point, all this needs to be shed. Hopefully, our precious teachers will encourage us to do that, and that we heed their advice.


_/|\_
The only thing one needs is right view. The rest follows from there. Realization follows the view, not meditation. This critical point is not well understood by many Western Buddhists.
Not sure how your post relates to mine you quoted. Malcolm.

I am not one to diss study and the Right View. It can indeed be very helpful, but it's not anywhere near sufficient. To say it's the only thing one needs is either wrong or a very strange mental contortion (to include everything else under it) That's why it's an Eightfold Noble Path, not a One Fold.

Meditative insight informs the Right View, just as the Right View, the Right Conduct, the Right Resolve and Effort prepare the ground for meditation that leads to insight.

_/|\_

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:55 pm

To make my position clear, I think importing our prejudices against certain elements and themes of Christianity into our Dharma practice can be a corruption and crippling of our practice.

That's all I'm really saying. Having a secure enough Refuge in Buddhism to allow for an open minded ecumenical attitude is secondary and nonessential, but still desirable.

As to my second point I'm in agreement with Dan 74's post above:
Dan 74 wrote:Early on in Dharma practice it can be useful to forcefully reject every other path, to focus 100% on the one you picked. Then, once faith has taken root, I think it can be useful sometimes to delve into other teachings. Not to say 'necessary'. Whatever works.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:30 pm

smcj wrote:From the OP.
climb-up wrote:We all know that ChNN says you can be a Christian and practice Dzogchen
Is this a widely known position of ChNN? Is it being disputed here?
It is a widely known position and no, it is not being disputed here. Of course, it is also a widely known position that ChNN insists you cannot do Dzogchen Guru yoga with Jesus because Dzogchen does not exist in Christianity.

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