ChNN on Jesus?

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
In general, Māra appears in visions and dreams. When one has such visions and dreams, there are ways to test whether or not that vision or dream is a Māra. The point of course is that one needs to be careful about trusting visions and dreams. This is discussed in both the sūtras and the tantras.
In what ways may we test if a dream is a Mara?
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Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:28 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, Māra appears in visions and dreams. When one has such visions and dreams, there are ways to test whether or not that vision or dream is a Māra. The point of course is that one needs to be careful about trusting visions and dreams. This is discussed in both the sūtras and the tantras.
In what ways may we test if a dream is a Mara?
For people who have received secret names, it is a little easier. In your dream, you ask the teacher, etc., who is teaching you to tell you your secret name. If they know, then you can understand this is a trustworthy experience.

I am not sure how people in sūtra deal with visions and ascertain whether they are true or not.

Tolya M
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tolya M » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:38 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Tolya M wrote:
ChNN is not Buddhist canon.
But he is the root guru of many here and is the reincarnation of Adzom Drukpa. Many consider him to be enlightened. For others, he is just another lama.
I did not say anything bad about him. He himself teaches according to the canon and adds his terma to it. I have not read anything above the basic level, but there is no place for any religion with the text of Padmasambhava in the beginning.

The question about Jesus more relates to the sphere of how not to offend anyone and not to drive people away. Dharmakaya is not different but not one and that allows you to draw very broad conclusions. If someone taught good, then this is definitely some part dharmakaya etc. But Bodhisattvas instruct beings in Buddhadharma. There is no evidence of Buddhadharma in Christianity. ISCON is much closer to the worldly right view if we look at different directions.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:47 pm

Tolya M wrote:
I did not say anything bad about him. He himself teaches according to the canon and adds his terma to it. I have not read anything above the basic level, but there is no place for any religion with the text of Padmasambhava in the beginning.
???

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tolya M » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tolya M wrote:
I did not say anything bad about him. He himself teaches according to the canon and adds his terma to it. I have not read anything above the basic level, but there is no place for any religion with the text of Padmasambhava in the beginning.
???
Did I say something wrong?

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:22 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tolya M wrote:
but there is no place for any religion with the text of Padmasambhava in the beginning.
???
Did I say something wrong?

I don't understand what this part of your sentence means.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:39 pm

as in, the high-lighted red part. . . did you mean any other religion?
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tolya M » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:I don't understand what this part of your sentence means.

Code: Select all

I have not read anything above the basic level
it means that I do not have extensive knowledge of vajrayana canon. But there is no place for any worldly religion as the Garland of views by Padmasambhava is accepted by all Dzogchen\Nyingma teachers. Once again I apologize for my English :?

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tolya M » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:00 am

joy&peace wrote:as in, the high-lighted red part. . . did you mean any other religion?
I thought a part of the text but did not write it. Sorry :mrgreen:

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:21 am

I understand. I have done the same.
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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:32 am

Tolya M wrote: There is no evidence of Buddhadharma in Christianity.
This could be debated as there are a variety of religions that include some Buddhadharma, such as right speech, right action , etc, but this is not the proper place.
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
To study them at the expense of studying Buddhist teachings. Indeed, the same goes for Hinayāna sūtras; spending too much time with Hinayāna teachings is a contravention of bodhisattva vows as well. It is the principle reason the Hinayāna canon was not translated into Tibetan, apart from representative sūtras.
Huh, so would, say, being a Christian be a contravention of bodhisattva vows?

One cannot be a Christian and hold bodhisattva vows because taking bodhisattva vows requires holding pratimokśa vows, and those are obtained by going for refuge to the Three Jewels. One of the precepts of going for refuge to the Buddha is not going for refuge in other teachers and their paths. So it is axiomatic that one who holds bodhisattva vows cannot be a Christian, a Hindu, and so on.
Don't teachers make it clear to people that Refuge is meaningless if one still thinks they are Christian in religious sense? Strangely I have heard of decade long zen practitioners in states who assert they are Christians.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:You don't understand, Māra can appear in the form of the Buddha, Karmapa, etc.
Huh, so how do we know that all of our teachers, and all the masters of the lineage etc, even you, Acharya, are not Māran apparitions?


In general, Māra appears in visions and dreams. When one has such visions and dreams, there are ways to test whether or not that vision or dream is a Māra. The point of course is that one needs to be careful about trusting visions and dreams. This is discussed in both the sūtras and the tantras.
This would Lead to an interesting thread. On the one hand we want to develop our intuition and self trust on our capacity for judgment but on the other hand we want to learn standard methods of testing and also get our intuitions tested from teachers. What is the balance? Esp given how in modern day spirituality they are all about developing self judgment through feelings and intuition as opposed to thinking or some analytical procedures or confirmation from outside sources. This does have a point given how much we look for validation from outside authority and how much we use thinking mind for judgment. But again there is the standard dharma suggestion of being skeptical even if one supposedly gets a terma let alone vision as it could possibly be from Mara too.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:03 am

Jyotish wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Huh, so how do we know that all of our teachers, and all the masters of the lineage etc, even you, Acharya, are not Māran apparitions?


In general, Māra appears in visions and dreams. When one has such visions and dreams, there are ways to test whether or not that vision or dream is a Māra. The point of course is that one needs to be careful about trusting visions and dreams. This is discussed in both the sūtras and the tantras.
This would Lead to an interesting thread. On the one hand we want to develop our intuition and self trust on our capacity for judgment but on the other hand we want to learn standard methods of testing and also get our intuitions tested from teachers. What is the balance? Esp given how in modern day spirituality they are all about developing self judgment through feelings and intuition as opposed to thinking or some analytical procedures or confirmation from outside sources. This does have a point given how much we look for validation from outside authority and how much we use thinking mind for judgment. But again there is the standard dharma suggestion of being skeptical even if one supposedly gets a terma let alone vision as it could possibly be from Mara too.
On this point my teacher had given an example of how a Mara may reveal a text which may look almost dharmic with a few words that change the direction and meaning of the text and that lead to fall from dharma. And that in some cases as soon as it is revealed to the guru it would burn itself.

He explained how dreams, visions as described above and Siddhis (likebsiddhisbof Jesus) have no meaning in buddha dharma unless related to pragya. And our fascination with them is a big problem. I also remember reading in Phillip Kapleaus three pillars of zen how such visions etc are considered makyo in Zen and this lack of fascination with such is what differentiates buddha dharma from most other religions.

The assistant teacher had jokingly assured us not to worry as Mara doesn't play with novices like us rather he is after the big guys; he doesn't see novices as threat thus worthy investment of his effort.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: So you see a difference between "an enlightened being" and "an emanation of a bodhisattva"?
Yes. Emanations can be worldly in nature. For example, Dorje Yudronma is a worldly protector, while at the same time being an emanation of Vajrayogini.

Can you please elaborate more on this Malcolm? I have never read or heard about this. I mean for someone who has crossed a bhumi what do normal folks connect to except their Emanations at least after death of a bhumi bodhisattva. So in that sense is there difference between "an enlightened being" and an Emanation as in there is no separate enlightened being separate from the Emanation existing at the same time. A bodhisattva could have say 100 Emanations across different planes but there is no another bodhisattva besides these 100 Emanations? Why the difference then?

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Grigoris
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:32 am

Vasana wrote:A vision of a master or deity is dependant on the devotion and pure vision of the student and the compassion of a master - it might be experienced as a blessing and as inspirational but it isn't really the same as darshan or a liberation through sight/sound etc, even if it leads the student to further diligence and dedication towards liberation.
Why isn't it the same? Seems to me that people are just tripping over the term rather than looking at the essence of the experience in both cases. Just because somebody ascribes an experience to a mistaken source (eg God, instead of the enlightened nature of mind) does not mean the experience per se is not positive or useful.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Soma999 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:38 am

The church : "out of the church, no way to be saved".
Some here : "out of buddhism, no way to be saved"

The church : " the evil everywhere out of our church"
Some here : "the evil everywhere out of buddhism"

Heu, you are not so different in fact !

Taking refuge is taking the teaching of the Buddha to heart. It has nothing to do with honouring - or not - other traditions. Wake up ! There are enlighted people in every tradition, and in no tradition also, in every place, at all kind of moments !

If Buddha can manifest only in the context of a "buddhist tradition", it's really nothing. So little.

If the spirit of awakening cannot be touched in other context than "buddhist tradition", it's very little...

I guess it's our fears which are big, are concerns which are biaised, and our openess which is very narrow.

What are the "mundane gods" ? So much have been said. I would suggest also a definition : mundane gods are also all the bullshit we believe in. They are our gods : i take refuge in my diploma, i take refuge in my little personnality, i take refuge in sectarism, i take refuge in politics... instead of taking refuge into enlightened awareness.

Buddha never "took refuge". First it had a spiritual meaning. Now it's more or less contaminated with manipulation : "oh you took refuge so now you can't do this, do that, you can't study other tradition, you have to be LIKE US..."

But Buddha was not like the rest of everyone. He was fully free.

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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Vasana » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:31 am

Grigoris wrote:
Vasana wrote:A vision of a master or deity is dependant on the devotion and pure vision of the student and the compassion of a master - it might be experienced as a blessing and as inspirational but it isn't really the same as darshan or a liberation through sight/sound etc, even if it leads the student to further diligence and dedication towards liberation.
Why isn't it the same? Seems to me that people are just tripping over the term rather than looking at the essence of the experience in both cases. Just because somebody ascribes an experience to a mistaken source (eg God, instead of the enlightened nature of mind) does not mean the experience per se is not positive or useful.
What is the escence of the experience in both cases? I'm not sure it's been properly defined here yet.
I guess it's just that darshan in Hindu-Dharma has a lot of connotations that are different to darshan in Budhha-Dharma although I recognize, as Mantrik noted, that many people treat visits by famous Lamas like they're darshans.
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Grigoris
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:42 am

Vasana wrote:What is the escence of the experience in both cases? I'm not sure it's been properly defined here yet.
What is the essence of any experience?
...many people treat visits by famous Lamas like they're darshans.
This is exactly why it is wrong to say that there is no darshan in Buddhism, when there quite clearly is. Maybe there is no darshan in Buddhdharma, but there certainly is in Buddhism.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tolya M
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tolya M » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:59 am

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Tolya M wrote: There is no evidence of Buddhadharma in Christianity.
This could be debated as there are a variety of religions that include some Buddhadharma, such as right speech, right action , etc, but this is not the proper place.
The mundane Eightfold Path and the mundane right view can coincide. It is ok.

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