ChNN on Jesus?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:43 pm

By the way -- yesterday. . . on this thread -- I know it may seem people are disagreeing and such. . . but reading it. . . I felt a deep sense of peace and bliss.. And a tremendous amount of metta between everyone.. I mean, people are expressing in a kind and heart felt way.. It was really wonderful. Anyway -- just wanted to say.

So, while one person said please close it -- my reaction was quite opposite, quite literally,.... Feeling metta in that discussion.. Quite wonderful.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:45 pm

Absolutely. Also,


Ch. 12
Seeing Aksobhya Buddha


The Buddha then asked Vimalakirti: “You spoke of coming here to see the Tathagata, but how do you see Him impartially?”
Vimalakirti replied: “Seeing reality in one’s body is how to see the Buddha. I see the Tathagata did not come in the past, will not go in the future, and does not stay in the present. The Tathagata is seen neither in form (rupa, the first aggregate) nor in the extinction of form nor in the underlying nature of form. Neither is He seen in responsiveness (vedana), conception (sanjna), discrimination (samskara) and consciousness (vijnana) (i.e. the four other aggregates), their extinction and their underlying natures. The Tathagata is not created by the four elements (earth, water, fire and air), for He is (immaterial) like space. He does not come from the union of the six entrances (i.e. the six sense organs) for He is beyond eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and intellect. He is beyond the three worlds (of desire, form and formlessness) for He is free from the three defilements (desire, hate and stupidity). He is in line with the three gates to nirvana and has achieved the three states of enlightenment (or three insights) which do not differ from (the underlying nature of) unenlightenment. He is neither unity nor diversity, neither selfness nor otherness, neither form nor formlessness, neither on this shore (of enlightenment) nor in mid-stream when converting living beings. He looks into the nirvanic condition (of stillness and extinction of worldly existence) but does not dwell in its permanent extinction. He is neither this nor that and cannot be revealed by these two extremes. He cannot be known by intellect or perceived by consciousness. He is neither bright nor obscure. He is nameless and formless, being neither strong nor weak, neither clean nor unclean, neither in a given place nor outside of it, and neither mundane nor supramundane. He can neither be pointed out nor spoken of. He is neither charitable nor selfish; he neither keeps nor breaks the precepts; is beyond patience and anger, diligence and remissness, stillness and disturbance. He is neither intelligent nor stupid, and neither honest nor deceitful. He neither comes nor goes and neither enters nor leaves. He is beyond the paths of word and speech. He is neither the field of blessedness nor its opposite, neither worthy nor unworthy of worship and offerings. He can be neither seized nor released and is beyond ‘is’ and ‘is not’. He is equal to reality and to the nature of Dharma (Dharmata) and cannot be designated and estimated, for he is beyond figuring and measuring. He is neither large nor small, is neither visible nor audible, can neither be felt nor known, is free from all ties and bondage, is equal to the All-knowledge and to the (underlying) nature of all living beings, and cannot be differentiated from all things. He is beyond gain and loss, free from defilement and troubles (klesa), beyond creating and giving rise (to anything), beyond birth and death, beyond fear and worry, beyond like and dislike, and beyond existence in the past, future and present. He cannot be revealed by word, speech, discerning and pointing.
“World Honoured One, the body of the Tathagata being such, seeing Him as above-mentioned is correct whereas seeing Him otherwise is wrong.”
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

Jeff H
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jeff H » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Axiomatically, Christians, etc., have wrong view, thus wrong realization, etc.
Would it surprise you to know that Christians et al say the exact same thing about all other competing religions?
Indeed, therefore, pick your view — and thus your realization and liberation— carefully. If you are interested in liberation in this lifetime, you would not want to make an error in your choice.

If you are an all-oner, you are lost before you have even begun on a path.
I have found my vehicle and I’m implementing it to the best of my ability. But a path implies stages of development. I believe that having the causes and conditions to receive buddhadharma implies lifetimes of prior preparation, just as progressing in buddhadharma implies gradual, step-wise changes over time. This position is based on the fact that the practical presentation of Buddhism that convinced me initially was lam rim. My path is evolving. Believing that I have found, what is for me, the exclusive path is quite a different thing than flatly concluding that every other path is utterly futile. The continuum of any given sentient being must come to the truth by degrees.

One reason I rejected Christianity is because they seem to say, a soul was created in its present life and, regardless of the conditions it finds itself in, it must unconditionally find and accept the One Truth (absolute refuge in Christ) within this lifetime or be eternally barred from heaven. I couldn’t reconcile that position as a Christian and I believe Buddhism explains an alternative which makes much more sense. But I still think I needed Christianity to bring me to Buddhism.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:59 pm

That makes sense.

Do you practice Ahimsa?

Let's bring this into the discussion.

:namaste:

It's good to be simple.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Would it surprise you to know that Christians et al say the exact same thing about all other competing religions?
Indeed, therefore, pick your view — and thus your realization and liberation— carefully. If you are interested in liberation in this lifetime, you would not want to make an error in your choice.

If you are an all-oner, you are lost before you have even begun on a path.
I have found my vehicle and I’m implementing it to the best of my ability. But a path implies stages of development. I believe that having the causes and conditions to receive buddhadharma implies lifetimes of prior preparation, just as progressing in buddhadharma implies gradual, step-wise changes over time. This position is based on the fact that the practical presentation of Buddhism that convinced me initially was lam rim. My path is evolving. Believing that I have found, what is for me, the exclusive path is quite a different thing than flatly concluding that every other path is utterly futile.
That really depends on how much confidence one has in sūtra and tantra about the distinction between paths of samsara and paths of nirvana. There is a reason we use the term "tīrthika."

And need I remind everyone again that the Buddha is quite firm about the impossibility of liberation outside of Buddha's Dharmavinaya.

But I still think I needed Christianity to bring me to Buddhism.
No, you came to Buddhadharma because of past life accumulations and aspirations to meet the Dharma again in future lives. In other words, you had already met the Dharma.

Jyotish
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Jyotish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Axiomatically, Christians, etc., have wrong view, thus wrong realization, etc.
Would it surprise you to know that Christians et al say the exact same thing about all other competing religions?
Indeed, therefore, pick your view — and thus your realization and liberation— carefully. If you are interested in liberation in this lifetime, you would not want to make an error in your choice.

If you are an all-oner, you are lost before you have even begun on a path.

I was never satisfied with my response to this kind of question. Thanks Malcolm!

"Indeed, therefore, pick your view"

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liuzg150181
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by liuzg150181 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:

Of course, when there is no supreme nirmanakāya in the world, pratyekabuddhas can arise, but pratyekabuddhas do not teach.
One question I have in mind,do pratyekabuddhas have refuge before attaining nirvana?

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:24 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Of course, when there is no supreme nirmanakāya in the world, pratyekabuddhas can arise, but pratyekabuddhas do not teach.
One question I have in mind,do pratyekabuddhas have refuge before attaining nirvana?
Pratyekabuddhas are those who have trained under a buddha in a past life, but attain awakening independently on their own in a future lifetime. So yes, at one point, they went for refuge to the Three Jewels.

Tiago Simões
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:15 pm

Image

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:17 pm

tiagolps wrote:Image

Oh, this is old. Krodha trotted this out years ago...

Tiago Simões
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
tiagolps wrote:Image

Oh, this is old. Krodha trotted this out years ago...
ooh :cry:

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dzogchungpa
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:27 pm

joy&peace wrote:By the way -- yesterday. . . on this thread -- I know it may seem people are disagreeing and such. . . but reading it. . . I felt a deep sense of peace and bliss.. And a tremendous amount of metta between everyone.. I mean, people are expressing in a kind and heart felt way.. It was really wonderful. Anyway -- just wanted to say.

So, while one person said please close it -- my reaction was quite opposite, quite literally,.... Feeling metta in that discussion.. Quite wonderful.
It is indeed a marvelous thread. So much joy and passive-aggression on display. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:39 pm

:group:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

Malcolm
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:40 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
joy&peace wrote:By the way -- yesterday. . . on this thread -- I know it may seem people are disagreeing and such. . . but reading it. . . I felt a deep sense of peace and bliss.. And a tremendous amount of metta between everyone.. I mean, people are expressing in a kind and heart felt way.. It was really wonderful. Anyway -- just wanted to say.

So, while one person said please close it -- my reaction was quite opposite, quite literally,.... Feeling metta in that discussion.. Quite wonderful.
It is indeed a marvelous thread. So much joy and passive-aggression on display. :smile:
Not very passive:
And in my own, incredibly witty and hilarious way, I am pointing out some issues I have with some of what he says.
Malcolm has, as always, made many wonderful points and clarifications. He has also been rude, dismissive and (in my humble opinion) very rigid and dogmatic.
I have no problem with his point of view, I have some issues with his style.
I assume it is being presented in good faith. I also assume that (most) fundamentalists deliver their hellfire rhetoric in good faith.

joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:40 pm

Its a bringing together of different viewpoints.

My own is more like Bankei's view --

Yet there is an important reason to have clarity of statements, and so forth.


And to speak with loving-speech.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

joy&peace
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:41 pm

Yes, you got it.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:41 pm

joy&peace wrote:By the way -- yesterday. . . on this thread -- I know it may seem people are disagreeing and such. . . but reading it. . . I felt a deep sense of peace and bliss.. And a tremendous amount of metta between everyone.. I mean, people are expressing in a kind and heart felt way.. It was really wonderful. Anyway -- just wanted to say.
j&p, you have earned your screen name. :bow:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

joy&peace
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:43 pm

Aww heh heh.

Smcj -- very kind. :heart:
Last edited by joy&peace on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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dzogchungpa
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
joy&peace wrote:By the way -- yesterday. . . on this thread -- I know it may seem people are disagreeing and such. . . but reading it. . . I felt a deep sense of peace and bliss.. And a tremendous amount of metta between everyone.. I mean, people are expressing in a kind and heart felt way.. It was really wonderful. Anyway -- just wanted to say.

So, while one person said please close it -- my reaction was quite opposite, quite literally,.... Feeling metta in that discussion.. Quite wonderful.
It is indeed a marvelous thread. So much joy and passive-aggression on display. :smile:
Not very passive:
And in my own, incredibly witty and hilarious way, I am pointing out some issues I have with some of what he says.
Malcolm has, as always, made many wonderful points and clarifications. He has also been rude, dismissive and (in my humble opinion) very rigid and dogmatic.
I have no problem with his point of view, I have some issues with his style.
I assume it is being presented in good faith. I also assume that (most) fundamentalists deliver their hellfire rhetoric in good faith.

I'm catching some hints of salt which, however, is quite good on popcorn.

:popcorn:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: ChNN on Jesus?

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:47 pm

Oh, this is old. Krodha trotted this out years ago...
Yeah, but it's good enough to get brushed off and reposted every so often. Especially towards someone like me since I'm quasi-tirthika. Back in the day I don't think Nalanda would have allowed me to stay there.

I'm sure you'll agree.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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