Best political system for Dharma

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Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:47 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:19 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm
There are no Patrons of Buddhism in democracy.
How much patronage does Buddhism require?

I think it has renunciate ethic that other religions may lack, so it may be somewhat antithetical to require lavish cathedrals or whatever.
Patronage isn't about building fancy temples only. Monarchs were also patrons of translation projects.
That only lasted a short time in Tibetan history. Virtually none of the new translations school translators had anything like royal patronage.
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boda
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by boda » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:47 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
Patronage isn't about building fancy temples only. Monarchs were also patrons of translation projects.
That only lasted a short time in Tibetan history. Virtually none of the new translations school translators had anything like royal patronage.
Maybe if you petition Trump he'll award you a fat translation grant. Stranger things have happened, in this administration. :tongue:

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Virgo
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Virgo » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:20 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:19 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm
There are no Patrons of Buddhism in democracy.
How much patronage does Buddhism require?

I think it has renunciate ethic that other religions may lack, so it may be somewhat antithetical to require lavish cathedrals or whatever.
Patronage isn't about building fancy temples only. Monarchs were also patrons of translation projects.
Nowadays that kind of patronage (for translations and so on) is not necessary. Democracy is clearly the best system for Dharma that we have. Why is that you ask? Because It poses 0 thread to the existence of Dharma and creates a fertile place for it to thrive - all it needs then is the patronage of us, the practitioners. Like here, I have 6 Dharma centers within an hour drive (I can list them if you wish, as proof), two of them are big monasteries. Within two or so hours drive there are many other ones as well, important ones.

Kevin

madhusudan
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by madhusudan » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:33 pm

I admit I was surprised to see monarchy as your proposed model, but when I thought about it, it seems true empirically if taking Bhutan and (formerly) Nepal as examples.

In other words, it's seems true for certain monarchies. Limiting tyranny by laws which must be goode and olde worked pretty well for a while in Europe.

My vote goes to republicanism with limited democratic features although I'm intrigued by your thesis.

Every system seems to devolve. In my view human interaction must be voluntary to be just, so any system should fit that prerequisite. For true dharma to flourish we should practice the ethics of not harming first.

Thanks for starting this thread. I think I'll enjoy it.

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Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:01 am

madhusudan wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:33 pm
I admit I was surprised to see monarchy as your proposed model, but when I thought about it, it seems true empirically if taking Bhutan and (formerly) Nepal as examples.
Bhutan was founded on the overthrow of a religious monarch by a secular monarch.

Nepal is a perfect example of the declining fortunes of kings injuring the Dharma.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by madhusudan » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:22 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:01 am
Bhutan was founded on the overthrow of a religious monarch by a secular monarch.

Nepal is a perfect example of the declining fortunes of kings injuring the Dharma.
I'm happy to stand corrected as I'm confident you are more knowledgeable in this subject area. Can you inform me on how the Nepali royals injured the Dharma? I was impressed during my time there in the late 90s with people's devotion.

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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by muni » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:03 pm

Bhutan is bathing in the Dharma but this means not or is no warranty for minds having the wish to turn back to theirs nature, or whether or not people are practicing. However stimulation is there for all wishing to do so. People are happy by the political system, at least those I meet. King is Buddhist, is living with his family in a house, not a palace. Each village has a responsible, if this one cannot help, it goes to the district responsible…till when necessary to the king himself who comes then towards the people to talk and try to solve it.

Nepal = corrupted systems. Buddhist inspirations are available, not by the politics. Whether people are practicing for liberation, again depends as well on themselves, even sometimes the situation is very hard, it is possible to practice.
Many are still living in temporary shelters in the mountains ( despite the many collected money after the earthquake ?!), going into their third cold winter after their villages were destroyed, some recently due to the last monsoon. Elderly and babies live in cold wet iron shelters or other.
Christianity is growing in Nepal, people receive help for example for study if they become Christian.
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

Having meditated on love and compassion, I forgot the difference between myself and others. Yogi Milarepa.

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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:17 pm

Democracy seems to be ideal in Dzogchen:
When, as in the example of a king appointing a minister,
The accomplishments are granted from above, this is the outer way.
When the kingdom is ruled having been offered by the people,
This is the way of the unsurpassable, self-arisen Dzogchen.
https://earlytibet.com/2008/01/15/early-dzogchen-ii/

The Vinaya was also supposed to be democratic although it doesn't really work that way that we can observe in surviving monastic systems I guess.

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Grigoris
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:01 am
Nepal is a perfect example of the declining fortunes of kings injuring the Dharma.
Didn't the heir apparent to the Nepalese throne go batshit crazy with a sub machine gun and kill half his family, thus paving the way for democracy (at last)?

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Nepal a Hindu country?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:04 pm

madhusudan wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:22 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:01 am
Bhutan was founded on the overthrow of a religious monarch by a secular monarch.

Nepal is a perfect example of the declining fortunes of kings injuring the Dharma.
I'm happy to stand corrected as I'm confident you are more knowledgeable in this subject area. Can you inform me on how the Nepali royals injured the Dharma? I was impressed during my time there in the late 90s with people's devotion.
Well, the because of the instability causes by the assassination of the royal family, the Maoists gained a lot of control, and they exerted a lot of pressure on small monasteries in the countryside, etc., and Nepal has basically become a proxy for China, none of that is good for the Dharma.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:01 am
Nepal is a perfect example of the declining fortunes of kings injuring the Dharma.
Didn't the heir apparent to the Nepalese throne go batshit crazy with a sub machine gun and kill half his family, thus paving the way for democracy (at last)?
Nepal's Kin Birendra established a parliament. When he was assassinated by his nephew in 2001, (and not his son as is popularly alleged), his brother rook power, dissolved the government, and then was forced to step down, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal#Kin ... .932008.29
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Minobu
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Minobu » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:20 pm

Soon capitolism will collapse in the form we know it.
modern industrialization has brought forth the robot.
there are just too many people and too few jobs at the moment.
thats about to get worse and the powers to be know it..


So this idea of a guaranteed wage is being floated around.
not welfare but a nice sum so one can buy things and live a nice life but without a job.

Maybe that will suit those that wish to do Dharma instead of drudgery or making fortunes.

the economy marches on...rich people will still have a possibility of getting richer...and professionals that truly enjoy their work can flourish..

it's whole new ball game on the horizon and some say it is coming faster than you think.

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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by boda » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:20 pm
modern industrialization has brought forth the robot.
You have a very optimistic view of how things will play out with AI. I don’t think we need to fear terminators but we may need to fear tyrants getting their hands on the power that AI may be able to provide.

A thing about dictatorships that may be somewhat counterintuitive is how even though nations under this form of government may be rich in natural resources the people can still do badly, really badly. You might think that with an abundance of resources there would be more than enough to go around, and the people and economy would reflect that wealth. This assumes that those in power are motivated do what’s good for the people. However history shows that those in power tend be motivated by the desire to stay in power. In an autocracy with an abundance of natural resources tax revenue may not be as essential. Not being a democracy, the peoples approval or votes is also not essential. In a situation like this the best strategy to stay in power could be to keep the people so downtrodden that they lack the capacity to revolt.

So dictator + powerful AGI = bad for people

Democracy + powerful AGI = depends on how it develops. If it developed very quickly and in the hands of the wrong people, those people might be able seize control and overthrow the democracy. It it developed slowly and widely enough a small group may not have the opportunity to take control.

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